[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[Dark_Cynic87]

I strongly recommend everyone giving this build a try and see if you like it more vs. the traditionally harder matchups.

The only thing really all that different about it is your sideboard, and that's just different in that you are overcompensating for CB with extreme amounts of bounce. It's also my opinion that while you say this is more flexible with CB, I must point out that Pyroblast is really good against CB, as is K. Grip, but you instead opted for chant, which does absolutely nothing against CB.

Your board is way generic. Also, you are running white, but using Hurkyl's Recall instead of Serenity in your board, which I think is the wrong call.

When compensating for Counterbalance, I would say green and red are the best two colors to pick from. Solid answers are, in my mind, way more effective than bounce. I think you should splash a color for CB, and I would say that red is probably your best bet.

RED:
4x Pyroblast MD
2x Ancient Grudge SB

GREEN:
2x-3x Krosan Grip SB
3x Xantid Swarm SB

That's how I play it. In my list, I actually go 5c, as do a lot of people. I don't understand your a 3c splash would be more flexible.

Hope I've helped some...

Pce,

--DC

[Marke]

This is my first post on the Source but I've been reading this entire thread and tested this deck quite a bit. Coincedentally i run a list alot like jazzykat which i think is near optimal if you run 3 color.
The only things i would change mainboard is 1 more fetch and -1 tundra. With scrubland you have just enough ability to get WW for kicked chant and the extra fetch is good against wasteland. Stifle is fairly rare, can be played around a bit and most importantly will have enough targets anyway.
Furthermore i would run 1 SDT instead of 1 ponder, the top helps improve the ability to find tendrils after nauseam very well especially when you cut 1 infernal tutor and 1 chrome mox which i totally agree on. In some games against blue decks the top is even better then ponder so its better to run 2-1.

Finally it's really neccesary to keep the IGG instead of a tendrils. Not being able to imprint tendrils is the only disadvantage i see of IGG over a 2nd tendrils which is very rare. Also having tendrils discarded and then removed is very rare and IF they do that they most likely use extirpate in which case it doesnt matter if u have 2. Extirpate is actually pretty good against us because of screwing up mystical tutor and the odd chance of getting nauseam when u went IT/LED with a nauseam in hand. If you fear the scenario of tendrils getting RFG'ed play a single death wish in the board.
Ill gotten gains gives a lot of uses like winning without nauseam and just forcing them to discard. One of my favorite plays is turn 1 land chrome mox ritual IGG. You force them total discard with afterwards both 3 cards in hand but you 2 mana on the board. (and if lucky extra LED/lotus petal).

My sideboard atm is:
1 ill-gotten gains
2 pact of negation
2 daze
1 slaughter pact
1 echoing truth
2 hurkyll's recall
1 chain of vapor
1 breeding pool
2 krosan grip
2 gemstone caverns

Like jazzykat said, angel's grace is rarely useful. It is used mostly when you are on low life in which case i find the IGG plan way more useful. I rather bring in an extra IGG so you are able to go IT->IGG->returned IT->IGG->IT->Tendrils. The extra IGG is also useful against many suicidal like black builds where the IGG plan is pretty solid, especially if they forced you to discard tendrils already.
Dark confidant has not been my favorite against blue, it generally just eats a counter as well and makes their spell snare much more useful. Also it doesn't really help in a hand where u want to go for the turn 2-3 protected win which is usually your best option. I can also be killed randomly by cards they had to leave in just because they dont have enough side against us like deed, explosives etc. Instead of confidant i run 2x pact 2x daze, it doesn't increase the average CMC as much as confi and even though pact/daze is not synergetic with LED this rarely matters vs blue. You use pact/daze to force through chant or duress for free and THEN go off. You rarely go off without a prior duress/chant and then there is a solid chance it was without LED in which case pact/daze just rocks. Daze is also a nice answer to a counterbalance, dreadnaught, tarmogoyf, brainstorm etc. They rarely expect it coming from ANT. Daze is also useful in the mirror actually whereas confidant is strictly against blue (i wouldnt run it against most rock type decks as they have removal left 9 out of 10 times).
Furthermore there is no need to run too much slaughter pacts/ chain of vapors against the decks they generally come in you want to leave the main as is mostly. Remember that a combo deck never has dead cards..

I prefer the breeding pool+krosan grip plan over wipe away generally. The extra land is something i want anyway against blue often (i side out a nonland on the play), its better to kill the counterbalance or dreadnaught then bounce it. Wipe away is only useful the turn before you can go off, krosan grip on counterbalance can give u alot of extra turns as some CB decks are threat light as dreadstill for example.
Finally the odd inclusion in my list is 2x gemstone caverns. This was an addition as my sb had 2 spots left over. Against any matchup u want to side out 4-5 non-lands max as you need to actually leave the combo as is. Against decks without hate u only want to side 2-3 cards actually.
Thus the only extra usefull board space used i found was either extreme narrow hate cards for certain decks like tormod's crypt but these were not really needed. Gemstone caverns at least is useful to 'upgrade' the manabase when on the draw against various decks. Against discard that doesnt run wasteland its great as it allows to 'counter' discard with brainstorm/mystical tutor and also dark ritual with orim's chant. Against stax/chalice decks its also really usefull because you can get off mystical tutor/brainstorm in resp to turn 1 chalice/trinisphere, also extra land is useful agains stax/chalice on the draw as the only out to turn 1 chalice/trinisphere is having enough mana AND bounce.

I'll leave my first post as it is now.

EDIT: An extirpate may be useful in the board too, tutorable graveyard hate is decent and it can be useful in the mirror probably. I also have to test it against MUC or so which tends to go longer and extirpate could possibly catch their FoW's and is garanteed information about their hand. Most times it will be just be a Peek without the cantrip though which is probably not what we want.
EDIT2: Extract could also be 1-of mirror tech perhaps as now 9 out of 10 lists run only 1 tendrils. Sucks if they have the tendrils in hand though offcourse but possibly duress can give you knowledge about that.

[jazzykat]

I don't understand your a 3c splash would be more flexible.

I think that the disruption package is more flexible. It is a 3c list that is pre-sideboarded vs. our tougher control matchups. In my testing with and against this deck Chant/Duress provides more unpredictability when you are playing blue control against this deck... i.e. A brainstorm has a lot more value vs. duress than vs. chant as you can hide your goodies from a duress. Alternatively, while you are completely safe from chant when wanting to play your cb turn 2 you are vulnerable to duress.

I think it is the slightly broader disruption package that gives you flexibility.

Being only 3c is as you stated correctly, it is less flexible overall.

As to the statement about over compensating for counterbalance, it is honestly the only thing I consistently lose to. Everything else, you may have a small chance, when CB hits it's just about gg.

I personally think AdNT is 1 of the 3/4 best decks in legacy at this time and it is only because there are so many divergent builds that we haven't come to more of a consensus.

As I count right now there are:

BUG
BUW
and
5c

Each with or without a doomsday package and of course our little idosyncratic swizzles we like to put on a deck.

So, there are 6 major iterations and then there are lists that go to 4 colors for REB. I am really looking forward to the GP to see which lists bubble up to the top and make day 2.

While we may all agree on ~40 cards +14 land the other ~6 have a dramatic impact on what plays out.

[b4r0n]

As to the statement about over compensating for counterbalance, it is honestly the only thing I consistently lose to. Everything else, you may have a small chance, when CB hits it's just about gg.

I agree. And for this reason, it makes a lot of sense to run 8 discard spells. Yes, losing Chant does take away some of your disruptive flexibility, but probably not as much as you think. Off the top of my head, Chant seems better when your opponent has:

a Top in play/multiple Brainstorms in hand/Brainstorm and countermagic in hand
multiple pieces of narrow hate (Stifle, Spell Snare, etc.)
2 Forces and only 1 other blue card/UU open and 2 Counterspells in hand

Tops and Brainstorms are the biggest problems, since they're the most common. However, they don't necessarily mean that your opponent can stop you; rather, they just give your opponent outs. As for the other situations, they're either relatively uncommon or possible to play around.

I mean, Chant is still really good against blue in general. It might even be slightly better against countermagic than Thoughtseize. However, considering that most blue decks are playing Counterbalance, it makes sense to make necessary adjustments.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Well, first off, I absolutely think 8x Discard spells is wrong, especially when half of them knock off 1/10th of your life each time, which is a lot when you correlate it to how many cards you could potentially draw with Ad Nauseam.

Next, I think the good stuff about Chant has been forgotten. Chant is a Timewalk for W in the early turns against non-blue builds, and a Timewalk for WW in the later turns, depending on what you are playing against. Personally, I like Timewalking. That's just me. Also, if it's a non-CB list but it's blue, you can Duress, they counter, Chant, they counter/or it resolves and you win. It's that easy. Not so with 8x Discard spells. In fact, 8x Discard Spells is way worse than that. Against a hand of countermagic (read 2x to 3x counterspells, be it FoW with a Blue card, Daze and Spell Snare or some mix like that), a single Duress doesn't do shit. A Duress plus a Chant does a LOT more. They force the Duress, you chant, they Daze. You pay one or don't, all they have is a spell snare. Just don't play C. Rit/IT and you are golden, which is easy enough for me as I simply Doomsday off ftw.

No comment on the Recall vs. Serenity thing? I would like to hear the logic of Recall > Serenity...

Pce,

--DC

[b4r0n]

Next, I think the good stuff about Chant has been forgotten. Chant is a Timewalk for W in the early turns against non-blue builds, and a Timewalk for WW in the later turns, depending on what you are playing against. Personally, I like Timewalking. That's just me.

Oh, absolutely. I like timewalking too. I also like smashing non-blue decks because they don't have relevant disruption.

Also, if it's a non-CB list but it's blue, you can Duress, they counter, Chant, they counter/or it resolves and you win. It's that easy. Not so with 8x Discard spells. In fact, 8x Discard Spells is way worse than that. Against a hand of countermagic (read 2x to 3x counterspells, be it FoW with a Blue card, Daze and Spell Snare or some mix like that), a single Duress doesn't do shit. A Duress plus a Chant does a LOT more. They force the Duress, you chant, they Daze. You pay one or don't, all they have is a spell snare. Just don't play C. Rit/IT and you are golden, which is easy enough for me as I simply Doomsday off ftw.

Right, a single Duress doesn't do much. Neither does a single Chant. But double discard is about equivalent to discard + Chant; that's the point that I'm trying to make.

[Kuma]

I would like to hear the logic of Recall > Serenity...

Hurkyl's Recall doesn't give your opponent a full turn to deal with it. Also, you can find it with Mystical Tutor. And we have more ways to make blue mana than white mana. You can also target yourself with Hurkyl's Recall to build storm or save your artifacts from dying to EE.

[ColeM]

Against purely countermagic, Orim's Chant is vastly superior as a form of protection for the reasons that you gentlemen, DC and b4ron, have stated. I'll also note that Chant + Ad Nauseam can be attempted at the end of your opponents turn, which has some additional advantages that I'm sure I need not outline. Chant tends to become stronger as the game wears on, as you gain more permanent mana sources.

As I alluded to earlier, and then Emidln clarified, additional discard effects, in place of Chants, isn't necessarily terrible. Xantid Swarm is then usually added in order to use IGG should your life total then drop to dangerous levels. However, I too do not believe this is the optimal strategy, despite my success with it -- this is partially why I have reverted back to playing DDFT (note: I still tend to play 1 Ad Nauseam in the 75).

[Marke]

Recall can be tutored, serenity cant. Killing or bouncing seems to be not that relevant in the matchup. Also Serenity taking a turn to do its job can be annoying. For example with recall you can bounce their trinisphere's and chalice's eot and directly use your other land for some stuff, serenity only kills them in your turn. Also serenity killing your own stuff can be annoying if you were trying to go for a upkeep LED.

[emidln]

Serenity can also be used as a Time Walk vs Stax-type decks. If you play it the turn before you go off you can be reasonably sure that when your next turn hits that any Chalices/Trinispheres/nasty shit will be cleared. This is a really strong play that prevents Stax's Chalice @ 2 from wrecking you, potentially lets you combo off the next turn, and definitely stops you from losing to 3sphere + Geddon. (You might have few lands, but you'll still be able to play spells because any sphere effects will leave on your next turn.) The biggest problem with Serenity is that it costs white mana. After that, blowing up enchantments just isn't all that relevant. Besides CB (which you don't bring in Serenity for anyway), everything else is easily dealt with using Rushing River/ETruth which are both already played and easily tutorable. This is why I play Ancient Grudge/Shattering Spree for the Chalice/Spheres and use ETruth/Rushing River against enchantments (I'm bringing them in vs Chalice/Spheres anyway).

[jazzykat]

First, I am estatic that this thread is not only civil but full of spirited and nuanced debate, the trolls must be in other threads.

IMO, while I think serenity is nuts against Stax (where I think we all agree it is best) I find myself playing out my 0cc artifacts ASAP vs. stax knowing that they will have disruption and I may need the mana to cast the bounce. That fact coupled with the fact that white is not your main color and that hurkyll's recall and/or rebuild are going to catch your opponent much more by surprise, it's in 1 of your main colors and it can also help you generate storm I prefer it.

As to the 8 discard main, cabal therapy is a 50/50 second option as you hit either fow or cb (I still don't think it's worth it). From some testing with BUG ANT I don't mind the first Thoughtseize but the second 1 really does hurt as I have taken 1-2 from fetches and 4 more from the seizes. 1 Hit from a 4/5- 5/6 or larger Goyf and if you aren't playing DD then your prospects for successfully going off become awfully grim. Theoretically you can put 1 seize onto a chrome mox but if that's your grand plan then you may want to play another card in it's place...

[loveisgreen]

I finally built the deck and I must say the 4 chrome mox is a little much. After about a month or so of testing I think I've decided on an optimal main.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
3 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Orim's Chant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Wipe Away
2 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Ill- Gotten Gains

After all the testing, I still can't figure out an optimal board. The Recalls are a must I think but we need tech vs. Counterbalance. If a resolved cb means gg then I think playing this deck is out of the question considering the meta. I'm thinking either the red splash for REBs or more Wipe away in the board is necessary, but I can't think of anything else. Ideas?

[ColeM]

I have been working on hybrid and DDFT lists using Spell Snare (Annul is another possibility) over Pyroblast. The advantages are: the manabase is fairly resilient if you stick to 3 colors, often have blue mana to cast the countermagic at Counterbalance (this is relevant vs. Dreadstill), and have a protection spell useable outside the blue based control match up. The disadvantages are: it sucks when Counterbalance resolves and can sometimes slow you down a little if you try keeping 1-2 blue untapped.

If you're determined to defeat Counterbalance, you're better off splashing for Red/Green for Blasts and/or Grips (or go the 8 discard route as is being discussed, I suppose). Until my wish of an uncounterable white disenchant existing is granted, anyway.

Edit: Snare is also good vs. Counterspell but sucks vs. Force of Will/Stifle/whatever annoying blue card without a cc of 2.

[Deirex]

I´ve explored Spell snare alot and I currently have 4 in my SB. It's working pretty nice so far. Handles Chalice at 1, Teeg Cannonist and Mage aswell.

[kicks_422]

First, I am estatic that this thread is not only civil but full of spirited and nuanced debate, the trolls must be in other threads.

I noticed that too. Probably because this is the deck which arguably needs the most thinking to pilot, which trolls don't like doing.

As for the Hurkyll's Recall/Serenity debate... I don't run either of them. I love the sheer power of Serenity, but the fact that it needs white mana and that it can't be Mystical'd for really sucks. It also needs SDT to be cast again, and that one mana might be crucial in the games where you need to side in Serenity. As for Hukyll's recall, I've had the fortune to get Chalices at 1 and 2 dropped against me frequently, so I dropped those. I run 3 Rebuilds in the SB to bring in against artifact hate, and that has served me pretty well. Extra copies can be cycled into whatever I Mystical'd for, which is a bonus as well.

Against Counterbalance, I just run a lone green source in the MD (tropical Island) and 4 Krosan Grips in the SB. That's been the best plan for me thus far, more effective than just plain bounce... Though if I were to go back to bounce as an answer to Counterbalance, Wipe Away replacing Krosan Grip would be the best plan.

I'm interested in Spell Snares though. It looks like a solid choice as well.

Here's my SB:

4 Krosan Grip - Counterbalance, mostly.
3 Rebuild - Artifact hate (Chalice/3Sphere)
3 Slaughter Pact - Bear hate (Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg/Glowrider. etc.)
3 Angel's Grace - Blisteringly quick aggro (in macthes where I side out Chant/Duress, these come in)
1 Helm of Awakening - With Grapeshot against discard and Bear hate.
1 Grapeshot

EDIT: Now that I look at it, I have a lot of SB options which are kind of redundant. I think I'll switch it up a bit.

[Marke]

I am wondering why noone is considering Daze as a option in the sideboard as a option against blue decks. It is cheap enough for nauseam and it protects the combo. Offcourse any counter doesn't have the greatest synergy with LED but against blue decks you dont run a LED ->IT or upkeep LED anyway without running a chant or duress first. We generally run only 1 or 2 non-islands so its basically always active and in a deck with 14 land bouncing your land is often irrelevant as you wont have land in hand anyway. Daze can also counter CB, standstill, goyf or whatever which generally buys you at least an extra turn.

The sideboard should mostly keep in mind that a quick kill is our best way to win, and thus every sideboard card should keep that in mind in my opinion.
The longer we wait the more liabilities there are especially as a few beats can suddenly make it very hard to go off, (ill gotten gains is a decent back up plan but still much harder to pull off). Boarding in 4 krosan grip is overkill really, as you are taking out combo pieces / combo protectors. If they don't run dreadnought krosan grip will be a dead card far too often, i rather play a combination of daze and only 1 or 2 grip in this matchup. Dreadnought can be dealt with by chant as well anyway.
As for the hurkyll's recall, serenity, rebuild debate, they must not only be good against stax but also against faerie/dragon stompy. Personally i fear these alot more then stax as stax almost has no clock whereas stompy has a really fast one. Especially faerie stompy can be hard as they have many angles of attack such as quick beats, chalice (and 3sphere after board) and force of will. I find hurkyll's recall, rushing river and echoing truth the best bouncers here as they are less likely to have 2 artifact disruptors early and its great to bounce a sea drake or efreet as well. Gets even better if it is in response to equipment. Because of equipment hurkyll's recall tends to be better here then serenity because it can bounce that as well whereas serenity would let you take a hit already. It is actually quite difficult to go off after being hit by a serendib efreet equipped with sword of fire and ice as they will more likely have Force and you are 7 life down...
For dragon stompy (though i rarely see that) the bloodmoon effects make hurkyll's recall better then serenity.
I previously had hurkyll's recall twice for these decks but because of the chalice at 2 possibility i might swap one out for a rebuild. I havent had these played against me yet though, i can only imagine it happens when they have 2 chalices as the first is set at 1 or 0 all the time.

Also against straight up burn isn't angel's grace pretty bad anyway? I find getting of the angel's grace-ad nauseam plan to be really clunky. Angel's grace isn't that great at buying a turn either as they generally just play the burn on their turn. I know it kind of counters the last burn spell, but still the card just doesn't work that well. I usually just leave the deck as is only swapping out chant and a single nauseam for some cheap bounce, and a ill gotten-gains. I then go for a quick nauseam or just set up the IGG plan. Bounce is neccesary in the case of those random pyrostatic pillar's or tormod's crypts/relics that can screw up the IGG plan.
Using grace for this matchup seems like a waste of board space to me. Against fast creature based aggro, chant is better and pure burn is a slight part of the metagame and even there grace doesn't do that much. Actually against pure burn id rather have some life gain card to side in for chant that can buy me more turns like sun droplet.

[Deirex]

I´ve been facing alot of burn and goblins lately and I´ve never felt the need for Angel's Grace. In the beginning I always thought that it would be the shit but after countless of matches against burn, Sligh and Gobbos I´ve always won anyway albeit at disturbingly low life sometimes. It´s always gonna be a favorable matchup for us so I don't like having SB pieces against them that don't help me against other things aswell.

I play 1 Iggy maindeck amd sometimes I´ve boarded in an extra for these matches but I´ve removed the second one now aswell.


I play 8 Discard maindeck (gonna cut one for Pact) since I run a straight BU-list.
I,ve missed Orim's at some points but most of the time the discard has been working just as good.

Currently my SB looks like this

4 Spell Snare (CB, Chalice, Teeg, MM, Cannonist)
3 Defense Grid (MUC, Solidarity)
1 Diminishing Returns (Discard and aggro)
1 Tendrils of Agony (Discard and aggro)
2 Wipe Away (CB)
1 Repeal (CB)
1 Rebuild (Stax, Dragon/Faerie Stompy)
1 Hurkyl’s Recall (Stax, Dragon/Faerie Stompy)
1 Rushing River (Everything)

[loveisgreen]

I really dig the rebuild tech, but if we are playing against Stax or D stompy and boarding in X Krosan Grip and X rebuild, how much of an impact is that going to have on our resolved Ad Nauseum? Stax is less of a problem but even against D Stompy we have the time to cast rebuild on Chalice/3sphere because if they are setting up lock pieces that means they aren't killing us.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Oh, absolutely. I like timewalking too. I also like smashing non-blue decks because they don't have relevant disruption.



Right, a single Duress doesn't do much. Neither does a single Chant. But double discard is about equivalent to discard + Chant; that's the point that I'm trying to make.

Non-blue lists do have relevant disruption. Duress, Chant, Thoughtseize, Trinisphere, Chalice, Teeg, Runed Halo, etc. There are many nonblue disruption spells.

I suppose you do have a point on the 2x Discarding spells unless you are in a position of no Xantid Swarm plus having to go IGG. I don't like to leave it up to discard, though. Chants feel much more bulletproof. Here's my disruption package:

4x Duress
4x Pyroblast
1x Chant
1x Wipe Away

and then I have 2x Chants in my SB along with more bounce (2x RR and an E. Truth) and 2x Grips/Grudges.

You guys playing 2x of Tundras and Seas: Why don't you just put those as basics? I mean, I never need more than 1x of any of the duals, and if they get wasted, I've had time to fetch/draw the colors anyway.

like this:

8x Fetches
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrub
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

To the Dragon Stompy thing:

Dragon Stompy can very often go Tomb, C. Mox/SSG, Trinisphere/Blood Moon, turn 2 go land, Seething Song --> Arc-Slogger, and then from there keep dropping disruption to screw with your combo plan while putting the pressure on with beats.

Pce,

--DC

[Marke]

Dark cynic,more then 1 dual is generally not needed for fetches, but neither is more then 2 basics generally needed for fetching. The reason people run 2x sea is that alot of times this deck has a 1 land hand. Every basic you add increased the chance of that land being a mulligan. The basic plains would give you far more mulligans then it would be worth as a fetch.
Loveisgreen, you don't side in krosan grip for 3sphere/chalice decks you only use rebuild/recall/serenity and possibly echoing truth (only vs stompy decks for me). Krosan grip is exclusively for decks running counterbalance.
Deirex, aren't there much better options then defense grid and spell snare?