I live in Chicago so I sort of feel compelled to play the GPI love aggro-control and have been testing this deck for only about a day now, but I have some more observations to leap onto the pile:
1. Wipe Away seems like garbage. I tried testing Jittes maindeck, and while they are awesome on MWS because of it's really skewed metagame, I don't think they're going to be awesome in Chicago. They just seem too slow. With a turn 1 vial and turn 2 jitte, unless you want to man up a cursecatcher you're still giving your opponent until turn 4 to have to deal with it, which just doesn't seem like enough.
2. In so many games I wanted a hard counter besides 4x force of will. This deck seems like it does hit the mid game and early-late-game pretty regularly, and 4xFOW just doesn't seem to cut it enough. 13 Islands doesn't really seem to be enough to support Counterspell, but what about Negate? Or if Jitte really is your "late game" option, why not just go all the way and go with Cryptic?
3. Tidal Warrior seems like a contender for those slots too. There are so many games vs. random midrange junk where you just can't force anything through. He's a mini-rishidan port too if people lean too hard on their mana.
i am preparing for gp chicago my deck has been doing well so far and doing really well in little local tourneys we have, and playing the top decks.
here is my list waterfront bouncer has been mvp
13x island
3x Mutavault
4x wasteland
4x cursecathcer
2x tidal warrior
4x silvergill adept
4x loa
2x waterfront bouncer
4x merrow rejory
2x wake thrasher
3x stifle
4x aether vial
4x daze
3x standstill
4x force of will
sb:
3x chill
3x gilded drake
3x propoganda
3x back to basics
3x kirra
let me know what you think and any suggestions ?....
Last edited by Jcreasey2; 03-02-2009 at 12:36 AM.
time will tell.
Standstill seems to compete with jitte for the same slot, and the way modern merfolk is designed, I believe standstill is hands down better. Vial, wasteland, and mutavault all heavily support standstill, and jitte seems completely unneeded anyway. maybe as a 2 of in the board, but that would be about it.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
Originally Posted by Ewokslayer
I was thinking about jitte, but it is really mana intensive. Another card i was think about for the side is thorn of amethyst
time will tell.
Not running Stifles is iffy, but there have been successful lists that use them SB or eschew them entirely... I use three and love them, but if you are doing good without, I can see getting rid of them. Not sure if Wipe Away + maindeck Jitte is the best way to capitalize on the free slots though... I use 2 Jitte SB myself. Have you considered Rushing River, more Relics, or Spell Snare over main-deck Jitte? I think one Wipe Away is just too random for it to show up when you need it, also. Maybe not, since it pretty much fills in as E-Truth #3... but I don't like singletons without fetch.
Sideboard cards i'd consider are Pithing Needle, Back to Basics, and more Relics. Needle and B2B are three of slots in my sideboard, I consider them my sideboard MVP's so far... So I'd definitely try these out if you haven't already.
I'm interested how the fourth Mutavault is working out for you... I run 20 lands with 13 Islands myself... I tried cutting an Island last night on MWS and got mana-fucked brutally like two games in a row... So my third Wake Thrasher got the ax pretty quickly... My point is that in my limited experience testing with 12 Islands, it's not enough blue mana, and this makes Lord of Atlantis stop being a power-play card and start becoming a dead card to pitch to FoW, if you're lucky enough to have FoW... But I'm pretty paranoid about having adequate mana bases, if it's been working for you let us know.
Hope this helps.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
These are my thoughts exactly. The thing is, despite our excellent and flexible Control package, we still win by being an Aggro deck, and sometimes 18 creatures just isn't enough to get things popping off. Being a creature is the main thing I like about TW, and the fact that his ability is actually a very versatile way to supplement our mana-denial option is icing on the cake. Personally, I really would like to find the way to fit in three or four more Merfolk to the deck... I think Tidal Warrior is definitely under consideration, and I think the only other thing that's near good enough is Waterfront Bouncer.
The question, as always, is what to cut. In my "free main-deck slots" (using the most loose definition of this term possible) I'm running 3 Stifle, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Relic of Progenitus, and 3 Daze. Obviously, I'm not really going to cut Daze or Stifle... And Relic is pretty clutch.
So my debate is pretty much that. I have two main-deck bounce spells (and maaaaaybe one Island) as pretty much the only things I could cut. This would leave me with no bounce whatsoever, since I think it's not a good use of sideboard space to run bounce there.
I guess the question of Tidal Warrior basically boils down to whether I should cut bounce from my deck entirely and go down to 12 Islands in order to run three Tidal Warrior... The question isn't whether TW is strong enough, in my opinion, since mana screw can take this deck a pretty long way in my experience. But I wonder if I would fuck myself by cutting my "oh-shit button" bounce spells, and by going down to 19 land, only 12 Blue sources???? Running TW sideboard doesn't make any sense to me if there are none main-deck, so pls don't suggest that as a viable option...
But I really would like some input on this question.
EDIT: Another, possibly stronger option that just occurred to me, is that I could cut Jitte from the sideboard, move the two main-deck Relics to the sideboard (which would make it 4 in the SB), and use those slots to run Tidal Warrior main-deck. It only gives me two free slots, but I think it's way less dicey than cutting a land or my bounce spells... What do y'all think about this one?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
^ i am just glad to see someone has took into consideration waterfront bouncer he has won many games for me especially using him with vial end of turn then bouncing a dreadnought goyf tombstalker rhoxwarmonk list goes on and on.
time will tell.
Well, he's about the only way I would consider cutting my two Echoing Truth. Honestly, I'd really like to find space for maybe two WB, but I just think Tidal Warrior is stronger, since he's the same size for less mana, and his ability comes online easier, and doesn't cost mana or cards out of hand...
I like the potential power gains that Bouncer would provide, but Echoing Truth is in my opinion ultimately more flexible, since it's harder to answer, and can hit artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers as well as creatures.
Although I think Bouncer is an under-rated card, I really just don't think I have enough room to fit it in.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Ran merfolk to a 3rd place finish in a 15 man tourney.
List:
4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejery
3x Wake Thrasher
4x Standstill
4x Aether Vial
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Stifle
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Echoing Truth
2x Ponder
12x Island
4x Wasteland
3x Mutavault
Sideboard:
2x Misdirection
3x Relic of the Progenitus
2x Back to Basics
3x Propaganda
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Stifle
2x Pithing Needle
1x Echoing Truth
Round 1: Played Vince? with Doran Rock. Multiple wastelands +a couple countered spells via daze +a few merfolk ran him over in no time despite multiple thoughtseize and a bunch of removal. 2-0
Round 2: Played against Steve with a planeswalker control deck. He gets off to a relatively slow start each game and after one for one trades for a while he runs out of gas and a horde of islandwalkers run him over. End game two similarly. It was a cool deck though, with jace, elspeth, hoofprints. 2-0
Round 3: Played My friend Dan with Angel Stax. Game one echoing truth bounced two ghostly prisons to let me swing for the win. Game two he has a slow start and I just run him over before he can land anything that will slow me down. 2-0
Round 4: Growthresh. Draw into top 4.
Semifinal: Guy who beat me last time with DreadStill. Game 1, he lands a dreadnaught, but two lords and two friends island walk to a victory. I never expected to be able to race him that way. Game two, he lands a dreadnaught again and I try to outrace him, but he EE's for two to get my lords and I'm holding only Force and a non-blue card. Game 3 he lands turn two dreadnaught with double daze backup for my echoing truth. ouch.
Consolation round: RGb bob loam w/chalice. Game one and two a couple wastelands slow him down enough for fishies to go all the way! Woohoo. 40 dollars store credit deproxied 2 1/3 of my mutavaults.
Thoughts: I love this deck. That said, I did run into pretty good matches all day, and had generally good draws.
Jitte didn't shine, but I didn't play against any aggro decks, so the jury is still out on that one.
I didn't miss the maindeck relics at all. They're nice to have, but I was much happier to have echoing truth available main. It just answers so many more things than relic does.
Wasteland the best land in legacy.
Ponder was wonderful. It let me keep one land hands (I only had to mull twice all day) or land heavy hands in the early game. In the late game, it let me get the best card out of the top 3 or shuffle the chaff away, which I feel greatly helped me break through during the mid and late game. I wouldn't run four, but two really had just the effect I hoped it would: increased consistency.
I was very happy going up to 3 wake thrashers and dumping Kira. Again, my meta is a little combo, a lot of control, and not a lot of pure aggro. I was never sorry to see wake thrasher as he is such a huge threat and can end games on his own.
I think if that the only changes I'll make based on this experience might be to move the main jitte to the side for either the third echoing truth or third stifle.
@Karrcinegin: Your experiences are similar to my own. Especially, in regards to Wakethrasher. If space were not at such a premium, I would certainly be using more. Also, if Relic did not cycle, I would not have it in the main. But it does, so I would not be so quick to removing it. After all, the only reason you did not find it useful was because none of your opponents were counting on their gy the way many Legacy decks do. One more thing, don't cut Stifles. This deck lives and dies by its ability to come out ahead on tempo after the first few turns. Stifle is huge in that role, and its very presence makes opponents do things in a less-than optimum way to try and circumvent it.
@Duke: Are you really going to run no bounce at all in the main?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
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I won a 44 player national qualifier tournament this weekend with merfolk.
My list :
creature [20]
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Tidal Warrior
2 Wake Thrasher
instant [8]
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
enchantment [7]
4 Standstill
3 Threads of disloyalty
artifact [4]
4 Aether Vial
land [21]
12 Island
3 Mutavault
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Divert
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Back to basics
2 Mind harness
My matchups :
1) Faerie stompy 2-0
2) Natural order elves 2-0
3) Natural order aggro control 2-1
4) Goblins 2-1
5) ID
6) ID
Top8: Eva green 2-0
Top4: Goyf sligh 2-0
Finals: The rock 2-1
I clearly chose the wrong deck for a mostly non-blue environment (big meta change apparently in the last months), but still managed to fight through gobs, elves and burn.
Do board out your FOW's against burn e.g.
Probably nothing that shocking in the list, however :
- 3 Thread of disloyalty MD :
After testing against rock and loam variants, you must have some kind of creature control/removal in the deck. Bounce is not sufficient enough. Threads is great, and combined with mind harness after side, you have a very good strategy against these decks, having your small creatures keep getting through while (temporarily) stealing there big ones. Plus it is a major surprise for your opponent.
- no stifle : too situational, as you already know
- 2 rishadan port and 21 land : more consistent, port is very very good for stealing tempo.
- back to basics SB : my only way to win landstill matchups
Although I was quite lucky winning, blue aggro control is being pushed out of the metagame by a surplus of green playing decks packing their sideboards with krosan grip and choke.
This also means Merfolk will get pushed out, not by chokes or krosans, but because blue aggro/control is the favourite matchup. Pitty for us merfolk players, but good times will come back eventuallly ;)
Props to H. Colja Wurdemann of rostock, your list was my starting point.
Last edited by HBspulse; 03-02-2009 at 03:21 PM.
Eternal rating : 1826
Belgium, Europe
I top 4 split a 24 person tournament at RIW hobbies this past weekend. My list was pretty stock, and I am the first to admit that I am pretty much a novice with this deck. I played this list:
Creatures 20:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wakethrasher
Spells 20:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Aether vial
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stifle
Lands 20:
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
13 Island
Sideboard:
3 Back to basics
3 Blue elemental blast
2 Pithing needle
2 Echoing truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Relic of progenitus
I won't go into a full tournament report but I will list some observations.
I didn't get a lot of mileage out of back to basics in the board because most players realized that I was playing with wastelands and specifically fetched out basics to prevent from being hosed by this enchantment. It might have worked out better if I had been playing more stifles but I basically just pitched B2B to force of will all day when I sideboarded it in.
Echoing truth is the bomb in the mirror match. It basically allows you to islandwalk and takes away that option for your opponent if you bounce there lord midcombat.
I think that playing 4 mutavaults is going to be a necessity if you expect a landstill heavy metagame. Not being able to play LoA is not really a good excuse. You really don't want to cast lord of atlantis too early because it is basically an "I win" card late game and your first few merfolk tend to die a lot. I will definitely be testing tidal warrior before the grandprix because it gives you the option of changing a colorless source into an island.
I am really interested in hearing comments from people playing the white splash for Sygg and swords to plowshares. There were a lot of games where I wish I just had an actual removal spell for a tombstalker or goyf. I know you open yourself up to getting your fetchlands stifled but I think it is worth the risk to be able to permanently remove your opponents creatures and give a wakethrasher protection from green against a deck that isn't playing islands.
Let me know what you guys think.
I will still always play 2 because even if the opponent fetches out their single basic land, it's going to help your mid-lategame matchup against Aggro Loam and Landstill, which are areas that still definitely need help.
Echoing truth is the bomb in the mirror match. It basically allows you to islandwalk and takes away that option for your opponent if you bounce there lord midcombat.
Why not just B2B or Pithing Needle? Tidal Warrior is a good option as well.I think that playing 4 mutavaults is going to be a necessity if you expect a landstill heavy metagame
Wait, if you don't need to play him early then why do you need Tidal Warrior to turn your colorless into blue?Not being able to play LoA is not really a good excuse. You really don't want to cast lord of atlantis too early because it is basically an "I win" card late game and your first few merfolk tend to die a lot. I will definitely be testing tidal warrior before the grandprix because it gives you the option of changing a colorless source into an island.
This is exactly why I think you don't need white. You top 4 split without it. Sure, it might be much easier in some games to have that swords to plowshares on their guy or pro green a thrasher through their defense, but in the end you don't need it to win. It's disconcerting how often I win while being at 4 or less life and a turn away from death, but the thing is I am still winning these games.I am really interested in hearing comments from people playing the white splash for Sygg and swords to plowshares. There were a lot of games where I wish I just had an actual removal spell for a tombstalker or goyf. I know you open yourself up to getting your fetchlands stifled but I think it is worth the risk to be able to permanently remove your opponents creatures and give a wakethrasher protection from green against a deck that isn't playing islands.
Let me know what you guys think.
I can't say for sure that you'll lose if you run the worse manabase to bring in white, but if you're winning now and the only difference is that you want to win by a comforting amount then that really isn't necessary.
Wait, if you don't need to play him early then why do you need Tidal Warrior to turn your colorless into blue?
I wasn't trying to convey that this is the only reason I would want to play tidal warrior, it's just an added bonus. I definitely think you should hold onto lords if you have other plays. Speaking of tidal warrior I have a few rules questions regarding this guy.
1) Can you protect mutavaults from wastelands by turning them into islands after they have been targeted?
2) If a player activates a manland and you turn it into an island does it still retain its ability to be a creature?
1) No, I'm pretty sure that the Mutavault counts as a non-basic island in this situation. Bonus of this is that you can now Wasteland an opponent's Flagstones of Trokair by turning it into an island, so it doesn't trigger when it hits the GY.
2) I believe yes on this. But someone should correct me if they know the rulings better.
<nt>
Last edited by Smog; 03-03-2009 at 05:23 AM. Reason: Deleted. Incorrect rules assessment.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
A non-basic island is still a legal target for Wasteland, so this works. Much like how you still take 4 points of damage if Price of Progress resolves and you have 2 non basics, with a Blood Moon in play.
they haunt minds...
What are we boarding out against Goblins? Obviously, two Relics, and what else? I am assuming Cursecatcher?
Sideboard is looking like this currently:
4 Blasts
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
2 Wipe Away
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
I tried a somewhat tricky boarding when facing goblins. I won the first round so I was on the draw.
I boarded:
-1 Aether Vial (Explain later)
-2 Relics (Ofc)
-1 Wake Thrasher
-X Cursecatchers
+3 Needels
+3 Hydroblast
I can't remember if I had anything else in the board. Anyway, the idéa was that if I can Needle their Vial, I might win more than they do. And also, if I do needle vial, I only have 3 and they have 3 left (I assume they have one in play).
I acctually won the game, I drew a hand with only Needle as first turn play (or Stifle) and since he keept, I knew he had either: A: lots of Piledrivers, B: Vial or C: Lackey. If it was Lackey, then I whould have been in bad shape since I had to Stifle it and then hope he didn't have removal for my Silvergill. If he has Vial, it's good times. He droped Vial and I shut it down.
Not sure this is the correct play, but I think that Needels might be good against goblins, there are alot of targets; Fanatic, Port, Waste, Vial, SGC and even Mad Auntie and stuff like that (Sharpshooter).
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
I would actually leave in Cursecatcher and take out Wakethrasher. Cursecatcher blocks lackey, while Wakethrasher blows up to at least 10 cards in their deck (F'ing Mogg Fanatic).
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