Some people already quoted this, but it is worthy quoting once again..Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
EDIT: I hope that this is the last time I contibute to any R/B discussion, but hence a few words from me...
1) I have sometimes a feeling that many of those people who scream "Ban XYZ!" just dont have the named card and in their enviousness they just want all other people devoid of it. This is especially true for the "new" staples like LED, Dreadnought, Goyf, to lesser extent also SDT.
2) Every three months around the Day:21st, there is an influx of messages on boards that have something in common, no matter what format they focus at. Some of those contributors are usual change-cultists; because of their progressionists mentality they adore change just for the change itself...
I dont think that both these points are enough to justify any bannings.
3)
Not that these arguments are invalid, but you may see that they both work against each other. So what do the people want? Fast format with Goyf? Slow with Top? I dont understand it... Well, in fact I do - they want DCI to ban strong cards that they dont own.
With Counterbalance in mix things get a bit messy. But still: I dont think that anyone who hates to play against CB/SDT would welcome the bannings of Goyf, because AFAIK, he is the best creature that one can get into play before CB-lock hardens its stranglehold. With Mogg Fanatic in play, you apply little pressure, so the opponent may strengthen his position and inevitably win. Goyf counters this tactics.
Obv. there is a problem with decks that incorporate both CB and Goyf, because they can swithc the roles (ctrl/aggro), or even play both of them at once . Playing against lock.dec (and CB decks are prison decks to some extent..) is very frustrating. Add Goyf and now these decks lose their main weakness - common inability to finish the game in time - and become much more powerful. But is this a reason for bannings? I am not sure.
a) Playing against Staxx/Pox is much more frustrating but I dont hear ppl whinning.
b) There are number of decks that laugh at CB and/or Goyf. (Ichorid, Goblins, Stompy, TES...)
Anyhow, CB/SDT/Goyf.dec are the first somehow relevant argument for ban of Goyf.
4) The "Oops, I win!" factor of Goyf is a bit overrated. Heck, we play format where third-turn kill are not unheard of! Singleton Goyf can hardly win game before turn five (four at best), because unlike Tendrils, he has summoning sickness.
5) Goyf makes many decks viable and I dont think that he is such a scourge of diversity. Imagine consecutive decks without Goyf and think how their compettivness changes and also about some some errsatz for Goyf:
- GoyfSligh: a bit worse. Werebear, Dryad, Grunt
- Team America: unlikely to work. Maybe with Dreadnought?
- NQG: a bit worse. Domain creatures or Dryad. Maybe Bear, but dont forget on Relic. NO->Progenitus?
- Green Landstill: no problem. But the decks starts to lose to time limit once again.
- Non-green Landstill: their chances improve.
- Eva Green: IDK. Maybe it will shift to Red Death and/or Negator, but once Goyf is outta picture, Bolts become a factor, so Negator = nono
- Survival: good. With their toolbox they can win even without Goyf.
- Aggro Loam: oh crap. Relic was not enough, so now we really rely only on Crusher, or what?
- etc.
For every deck that dies to Goyf, you may find one that he makes viable. Am I right?
6) The color pie + strength of cards - well, I like what was already written above: every color has its powerful cards that also inspire the game differently - blue and its tricks, etc. So, we have the strongest creature. Better yet in green? Hurray!
If we get rid of the most powerful creature of the format, another one takes his place... Wil we ban again?
7) Otoh, I can imagine, that Goyf would be condemned to Vintage only, because he is extremely strong and unlike LED, FoW, Nought, etc. he does not need a whole deck to be build around him. This statement also counteracts my previous thesisbecause trying to do the Goyfs work with non-Goyf creature is not that easy - Nought, Stalker or Enforcer are not that easily splashable and their p/t vs. cost ratio is not that absurd, too.If we get rid of the most powerful creature of the format, another one takes his place,
8)And? Do you really want them to print such a creature? Isnt Goyf enough, or what?
9)Yeah, and it is discriminative and politically incorrect! We must undo such injustice. Call the president. Now!
10)11) After all, it is just a vanilla bear, although big one. I dont believe that he would be removed anytime soon.
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Ban SDT. Not Goyf.
Last edited by Aleksandr; 03-15-2009 at 01:41 PM.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
You can lose to a Marsh Viper hitting you just as many times, if not, less. That dies to the same spells Tarmogoyf does. So what's your point?
Seriously, Tarmogoyf is just a creature. And there are plenty of removal spells in the format that can take care of him fast and efficiently. And if they can't off the bat, chances are he's only a 3/4 anyhow. And assuming you yourself play a competitive Magic deck, I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard squaring the deal.
Marsh Viper doesn't obsolete nearly every other creature in the format. That is the issue, not that he is absurdly hard to handle. Think about it, what creatures can Wizards possibly print that will be played in Legacy now?
Well let's see what has been seeing play that was recently created (say from the last 4 sets): Cursecatcher, Swans of Bryn Argoll (somewhat), Ashenmoor Gouger, Demigod of Revenge, Vexing shusher, Kitchen Finks, Flickerwisp, Wake Thrasher, Figure of destiny, Ranger of Eos (surprisingly), Master of Etherium, Wild Nacatyl, Rhox War Monk, Tidehollow Sculler, Wooly Thoctar, and a few others that show up from time to time.
While none of these creatures are as powerful as tarmogoyf, they are definitely more interesting. One thing that I think is important about having goyf remain in legacy is that it prompts any creatures that do wind up seeing play in legacy to be far more complex than what we already have: Goyf prompts the printing of creatures that can potentially be just as effective as goyf, but require a higher standard of playskill and deck building. I guess in a sense goyf's presence prevents any further dumbing down of the game (though admittedly he did dumb it down quite a bit).
Just my two cents.
So you are saying that to balance out 'goyf, Wizards just needs to print better creatures? Or just play 'goyf forever? Sounds spectacular to me.
Not so much if the "more interesting stuff" is pretty much always used in addition to goyf, as substandard goyfs 5-8.Goyf prompts the printing of creatures that can potentially be just as effective as goyf, but require a higher standard of playskill and deck building.
I'm not really on any side in this debate, although I think it's interesting that only one side is allowed to make stupid hyperbolic comments (e.g. "countertop and goyf are weak, I beat them with Squire.dec, anyone who can't just sucks"). Because of that, where one side is supposedly positioned as macho and reasonable and the other side is positioned as whining ninnies, it's not really a fair argument to all participants. And there really isn't any room left for people who are in the middle, not for bannings but find goyf a bit regrettable.
I think he means that instead of printing Vanilla beats, in order to create creatures worth playing, they need interesting abilities, which in turn makes the combat step more interesting, and the game more interesting.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
Thanks raharu.
Also for that matter, I feel like goyf is decently balanced (not totally though) due to the printing of Relic of Progenitus. Relic is even better as well due to the fact that it isn't simply an anti-Goyf silver bullet, as it also hits a good deal of other decks: decks can get away with running it in the main. The printing of relic was very smart on the part of Wizards.
I guess I agree that it doesn't necessarily need to be banned, it is just unfortunate that they printed it.
As for non-vanilla beats, there are a ton of creatures with abilities that are still not played. So they have to print something with an ability that outweighs a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2 mana. Something like Bob.
Oh I totally agree that is unfortunate that they printed it. But at least they are giving us Bob-esque creatures to deal with it. Additionally, at least we know they will never print anything worse than Goyf (unless the staff got really really stoned for several months straight or something...).
No they will assuredly print a lot that is worse than 'goyf. None of it will see play in Legacy though.
Of course Legacy involves attacking for the win. Every deck that isn't TPS has to attack for the win in Vintage too - your argument makes no sense. Except for Suicide and Naya Burn, those decks generally put themselves in a fantastic position and just use creatures to finish people off (although Suicide does that too, it really needs to finish people off quickly). These aren't games decided by the combat step - they are decided by counter wars, sorceries, and end steps.
That's why Extirpate is in almost every Landstill sideboard, European or not...
Running basic lands doesn't mean you may not be left with a manabase of 19 blue sources, 14 green sources, 12 white sources, and 12 red sources. That's the root of the argument - you simply have to make an exchange of either horribly dying to Wasteland or simply not getting colors.
And that "we" stuff sounds very rude to me. This is a game, is it not?
Top decks? Here's the top decks in this format:
Threshold
Landstill
Everything else is on a different tier although still extremely competitive. Some Landstill decks run Goyf just to block other Goyfs (I'm not on that side of the fence personally), but all Threshold builds run Goyf. It also doesn't help that there were more Goyfs played at that tournament than Forces.
Vial was in about 40% of decks before Goyf was printed. It is now in about 20-25% of decks because of Merfolk and before that deck became popular, it was in less than 15% of decks. Just like Madness and many other synergistic 12-20 card strategies, Goyf has made them far less attractive options.
I will concede the argument on Suicide variants.
As for permanent hate, I don't mean something that stops ONE Goyf - sorry for not being a bit more clear on that. I meant something that is either extremely difficult to remove and has protection from green, or just destroys all of the Goyfs in an opponent's deck. However, that doesn't seem likely since it would have a bad impact on other formats, and the last thing I would want is to ruin the fun for people in other formats.
WHAT? No, just no.
Discussing potential bannings always polarizes people like this. Even when Flash was running rampant, and 90% of us were clamoring for it to get the axe, there was still that 10% that was like "Quitcherbitchin ya little girls. Flash ain't that bad. Toughen up and learn to live with the Flash, like me. I'm so cool. Excuse me while I adjust my sunglasses and take another drag." Or something.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Then you've just contradicted yourself. You said Vintage and Legacy didn't revolve around the Attack Step, when they do. And do you seriously think decks like Suicide/x (Deadguy Ale, Red Death, Eva Green, etc., etc.) and Threshold wait until they have lethal damage on the board and THEN swing? Because they don't. They attack as often as they can. That is why Legacy revolves around the Attack Step for the win.
That's why Extirpate is in almost every Landstill sideboard, European or not...
Mana bases really aren't as complex as you make it. Between Rav/real duals, fetch lands, basics, and Moxen...it's very easy to make a mana base that supports 3/4 colors without worrying about being taken off a color by Extirpate. My deck has multiple double and even a triple color casting cost of various colors, and still functions just fine against Wasteland/Blood Moon. Hell, I even run Blood Moons of my own.
That's a very conceited comment. Legacy doesn't have Threshold and Landstill as top dogs only. The top tier is a lot more diverse than you make it sound, but I suppose it supports your argument better if the top tier is only two archetypes of deck and one of them always runs Goyf and one of them occasionally runs Goyf (although I've never seen Goyf in Landstill).
And I'm sure if every decklist was tallied at GP: Chicago, your last statement would be invalidated. But in regards to the Top 8, that just shows that Threshold and Landstill (one of which always runs Goyf, both of which always run Force of Will) aren't the kings you make them out to be. Once again, you contradict yourself.
Before Future Sight, Ęther Vial was used in Vial Goblins and CounterSlivers. After Future Sight, Ęther Vial is used in Vial Goblins, CounterSlivers, Death and Taxes, and Merfolk. That seems like an increase in Ęther Vial usage, not a decrease. But I suck at math.
Madness was dead/dying before Future Sight was even released. Tarmogoyf had nothing to do with it's passing.
You mean like...oh...Runed Halo? Gives you Protection from Tarmogoyf? How about kill/discard one Goyf, and then Extirpate it? How about landing a Progenitus on turn 3 after they drop a Tarmogoyf? How about Moat?
You don't need new cards to deal with Tarmogoyf (although some of them help). There are plenty of answers in older sets.
Except for one small difference. If Flash resolved, that was game. Right there. No ifs, ands, or buts. Flash resolved, opponent lost.
Tarmogoyf isn't like that. It resolves, and it still takes 4-5 turns to kill someone as long as it isn't killed/blocked/bounced/stolen.
You missed Volt's point. Discussions of the B&R list and what should/shouldn't be banned always polarize people and create strong for/against camps -- even during the Flash-era, which seemed like a no-brainer to almost everyone.
Right. I should probably end every post from now on with the disclaimer that I don't care whether goyf gets banned. This discussion was supposed to be about CB-Top, but I guess it isn't surprising that it devolved into an argoyfument.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Frankly it seems like this discussion is getting out of hand. As a comboplayer sure I consider CB-Top and Goyf some of the worst things to face but they are by no means as gamebreaking as Flash was and don't warrant banning.
Personally I would've liked CB to Counter ALL spells played not just those of the opponent, that would“ve made it more tricky (and fun) to play albeit more timeconsuming perhaps but that's not the point.
In due time I'm sure something will come along to make CB top less than the monster it is today. Like Ad Nauseam did for Storm vs Stifle.
We'll just have to be patient because I don't think anyone would say that facing a CB-Top deck is instaloss.
My gripe isn't even a power-level gripe. It is more of a "can't play any other good creatures because 'goyf is better" complaint.
But there are dozens of other creatures played. The rest of the creatures, pre- and post-Goyf, were never played. Your point is moot. Tarmogoyf only directly obsoleted ONE creature. Werebear. Creatures that aren't played with Goyf in the format are the same ones that weren't played with Werebear in the format.
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