Tarmogoyf is clearly a very-widely played duder, since he costs two and is extremely splashable.Originally Posted by scrow213
Regardless, here are the creatures played in the GP: Chicago T8:
24 Tarmogoyf
10 Dark Confidant
5 Tombstalker
5 Sower of Temptation
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Trinket Mage
3 Taurean Mauler
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator
(4 Simian Spirit Guide)
That's 17 dudes + Goyf + SSG (which is more a mana source than a dude; if you want to count him, the number is 18).
For such a distorting creature, many other dudes are playable in this format. That's because Tarmogoyf can only do two things: attack and block. He does those things well, since he's so fucking cheap, but that's all he does. Other than the 1-drops in this list (Goose + Kird Ape/Kitty) and Nantuko Shade, everything in the list does something important (draws cards, forces discard, pings, Blood Moons the board, flies, etc.).
Nobody expects Tarmogoyf to always get there by himself.
Just as a counterpoint, here's the list of creatures that appeared in Top 8 decks that didn't also include Tarmogoyf:
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Taurean Mauler
Only the Dragon Stompy deck, in other words.
Again, I don't really care if Tarmogoyf gets banned. Just trying to keep it real.
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I think the entire Magic gaming community knows Tarmogoyf is really f'in good, that's just beating a dead horse with a stick.
There really shouldn't be an argument on him anymore. He does not distort the format at all. He's just a really good all-around creature and people know this. The trick is how you yourself deal with Wall of Tarmogoyf when there are two in play facing each other. Everyone seems to be under the idea that he dies to generally everything, but his real strength is in staring down 3/3's and 4/4's (Mongoose, especially).
He's splashable in anything playing green. Ask yourselves this question: If you decide to put together a new deck, do you automatically say to yourself, "Four 'goyfs..."?
This is wrong.
I think the big thing people are missing is that goyf took creatures of all colors and sizes and casting costs out of the format. It isn't that he is better than a specific option it is that every other option in other colors is pretty poor compared to goyf.
I can answer that right now. I play RGb Aggro-Loam. My main deck creature slots are:
3x Terravore
3x Countryside Crusher
3x Dark Confidant
1x Eternal Witness
4x Vexing Shusher
Terravore is my main big beats. */* Trample (averages 10/10, although yesterday I had two 15/15s) for 1GG.
Countryside Crusher is my secondary big beats. A base 3/3 for 1RR that thins my deck (and feeds my Terravores), and gets bigger with every land it mills into my graveyard, every land I cycle, every time I pop a Wasteland or get Wastelanded, and tends to end games after a fat Devastating Dreams.
Dark Confidant. 1B draw engine that usually comes down turn 1 and swings in a few times before dying or just sitting back to draw me cards.
Eternal Witness. Basically, with Volrath's Stronghold, it's a 2BGG infinite recursion engine for my graveyard. Also a very good chump blocker (since it has to die to work for my engine).
Vexing Shusher. Shuts down Force of Will. Shuts down Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top. Shuts down Counterspell (yes, it's played in many Landstill builds). Very useful main deck choice when confronted with a counter-based control metagame. In fact, the look on a Landstill player's face when they drop Standstill and then I drop Vexing Shusher to break it in game 1 is priceless. Or when it comes down turn 1 and then a Chalice of the Void for 1 comes down turn 2 with Shusher protection.
I used to run Tarmogoyf main...but in Aggro-Loam (at least), he's a very underwhelming do nothing creature. Almost every time I drew Tarmogoyf game 1 when he was main, I wished he was any other creature in the deck. But now I run him sideboard, since I don't entirely discount his value in the aggro match up.
Tarmogoyf is definitely a very good creature. Best creature in the format? Definitely not. But a very good and efficient beater and, later, blocker. But just because a deck runs green doesn't mean Goyf is actually good in it, and not every deck splashes green for Tarmogoyf.
Tarmogoyf took ONE creature out of the format. It directly replaced Werebear in Threshold as the 2CMC threat. No one else has legitimately named one creature Tarmogoyf forced out of the format that wasn't present in GP: Chicago in dozens of decks.
You are missing that point.
Solaran:
Other creatures that Goyf obsoleted:
Flametongue Kavu
Troll Ascetic
Burning-Tree Shaman
Loxodon Hierarch
Silver Knight
White Knight
Pretty much ever WW 2/2, actually.
Descendant of Kiyomaro
Phyrexian Negator
Rotting Giant
Flesh Reaver
More generally:
Every creature that fights on the ground that
a) Costs more than 1,
b) Isn't Dark Confidant or Trinket Mage, and
c) Isn't currently in a deck called "X Stompy".
Also, to a very large extent, Goblins. Not that that's a huge point against it.
If you're seriously arguing that it's not holding back creature diversity in the format, you're wrong.
@Alix:
Shut it.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I'm not quite endorsing the banning of Tarmogoyf, but just for the sake of answering your claim:
Wild Mongrel (it wasn't just played in Madness)
Phyrexian Negator
Quirion Dryad
Watchwolf
Burning-Tree Shaman
Loxodon Hierarch
Several "Knights" (WW 2/2 guys with abilities, e.g. Samurai otPC, Silver Knight)
Wall of Blossoms
Wall of Roots
To put it simply, consider all decks in the format that are playing Tarmogoyf, and look at what they would be playing otherwise. Werebear is only one of the answers you'll get.
Also, it's worth noting that Lorwyn and Shards creatures are quite powerful when compared to other blocks, and it's likely that some (more) cards from them could have seen play otherwise (Ashenmoor Gouger comes to mind, while Rhox War Monk would probably be a big contender rather than a support tool).
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Seriously? They are still played. Just a quick scan of deckcheck of decks in 2008 that top 8 with them was over 100 (70/30 towards Heirarch). This site is pretty much just the European scene.Was it really ever played in Legacy?
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
That a card obsoletes other cards is not an argument for banning. Lightning Bolt obsoletes Shock. Pernicious Deed obsoletes Wrath of God. This is not an argument.
No, you are not understanding. Those cards obsoleted one card. Goyf obsoleted a list of creatures of all sizes, colors, and costs.
And Kabal, those creatures were heavily played before Goyf. Now, you seem them in a few Rock Decks or as a one of in Survival. Give me a break.
Solaran, you may want to take a look at what you just said, then go back and look at what was played in Legacy 2 years ago.
With all due respect to Finn, Death & Taxes is a corner case.
Flametongue Kavu and Troll Ascetic were staples in RGBSA. They also showed up in Stompy and Sligh decks. Flametongues were great at killing Werebears back when people used to play Werebears.
Burning Tree Shaman saw a lot of play in RG Stompy, RG Sligh, and Red Thresh decks.
Phyrexian Negator, Rotting Giant, and Flesh Reaver all saw play in Red Death, which was a popular, competitive deck.
You're correct that Terravore and Countryside Crusher are two creatures that have not been obsoleted. However, the vast majority of Aggro-Loam decks also play Tarmogoyf. You appear to be an exception in that regard.
I'll take your word for it that people still play Loxodon Heirarch in BGw Rock, but Rock decks don't seem to be very competitive right now.
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Actually, give me a break. Your quote-on-quote heavily played is not backed by any numbers other than "it was played". Based on some real data again using DeckCheck, the # of times Loxodon Hierarch was apart of a top 8 deck before Goyf was legal 23. Number of times in 2008 ~70.
Actually, it is a good which has caused decks like White Threshold to morph into a more NLU style deck.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
So you're arguing from a position of ignorance. Always a strong call.
I can see why this argument doesn't seem important to someone who never played Legacy before Goyf, but some of us remember more dynamic board scenarios.
Well that's relevant.Loxodon Hierarch - Still played in Legacy BGw Rock
Silver Knight - Still played in sideboard D&T
White Knight - Still played in sideboard D&T
Pretty much ever WW 2/2, actually. - Still played in maindeck D&T
Descendant of Kiyomaro
Let me clarify; They were played in good decks.
Also, creatures aren't card manipulation spells. Next person to make a Brainstorm comparison gets punched in the face. Brainstorm is the best at a narrow effect that only one color did anyway. Every creature used to have creatures, even Blue.
Also, Terravore, like Progenitus, is hardly relevant because you have to build your deck around it. I would have no problem with Tarmogoyf if you had to work to play it. I didn't even mind it in Standard because it was a lot harder to abuse in every single deck there.
Let me repeat for the hundredth time, also:
I'm not saying that the format sucks because of Tarmogoyf, or that it's not diverse or interesting. I've even said they probably won't ban Tarmogoyf because the format is still healthy.
However, while the format having a staple removal, discard, card manipulation or counterspell card has little drawback, I think the format having a staple creature drastically hurts the diversity and thus makes the format less interesting. That's all. The format would be more interesting without Tarmogoyf. That doesn't mean it's not still interesting.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Why do I need numbers? Is it not obvious how little they are played now than back when Goyf was not around? Are you really trying to argue over something this little? Troll, since Goyf was printed, has really only put up top 8s in The Rock, over in Europe. The Elephant, is only played in the Rock or Survival. Did I not say just that?
And really, it is quite hard to pull up numbers on Legacy from back in the day. Less tournaments and less results posted makes it kind of hard to compare the before and after. I am really just going by what I have seen change in Legacy.Now, you seem them in a few Rock Decks or as a one of in Survival.
I'm seriously stepping away from this discussion. Discussing Tarmogoyf on any Magic board is like discussing politics anywhere else. Everyone has a view, no one can sway anyone on the other side, and sooner or later the entire conversation degrades into name calling.
To put the issue into a nutshell;
The problem isn't that Tarmogoyf is too good in anything, it's that it's really good in everything. Back in the day, there were lots of different creatures that shone in lots of different decks. If you needed the madness outlets, Wild Mongrel and Aquamoeba were strong. If you wanted to build a tribal deck, you played Goblin Warchief and Piledriver. If you were playing a midgame deck like Survival or Rock, you could pay a little bit more mana to tutor up a creature like Flametongue Kavu or Loxodon Hierarch, who had a CIP effect that could stabilize the board while providing a big body. If you were playing White Weenie, you played first strike or evasion dudes with Equipment; if you were playing Sui, you played Dark Ritual and disruption to get big guys with big drawbacks through quickly.
Tarmogoyf outshines everything in everything. He's like the fucking Sun. Tarmogoyf is Hierarch for half the cost, he's Negator with no drawback, he's Goblin Piledriver by himself (and a much bigger ass). He's Wild Mongrel with a perpetually self-refilling hand. He's Arrogant Wurm but bigger and always cheaper.
Other decks devote their entire strategies to either filling the yard with land so your Terravore can be bigger, or building up a huge board so Piledriver or Wake Thresher is the same size, or simply trying to double block with two Hellbent Gathan Raiders, or a Serendib Efreet with a Jitte on it.
But Tarmogoyf itself requires no effort. It allows you to pursue any other strategy, whether it's burn or a Counterbalance-Top lock or reanimating Sutured Ghoul or whatever, and it does it while being grossly efficient and obsoleting all these other strategies. At it's worst it's a no-investment Wall that can swing for 5.
Tarmogoyf exists on some power curve way outside of where any other creature in Legacy resides. It's a stupid, poorly designed card that suppresses diversity. The format would be better with it gone.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
So Counterbalance/Top isn't the issue, it's Goyf. It's nice we have this settled...
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In a format with all of the answers available to a vanilla creature (no matter how gigantic), if you lose to Tarmogoyf specifically the answer isn't ban the thing. It's to play a better deck.
Here's a question: Would you have banned Psychatog in Invasion-Odyssey Standard, since it was just as predominant and even harder to stop?
Blasting Tarmogoyf out of the way in a modern game of Legacy isn't really that difficult, and saying that it invalidates older creatures, while true, is irrelevant - do you really want to have Serra Angel as a flagship creature? A vanilla creature is not the be-all, end-all of power level. We can do better than demanding that it be banned.
I would like to ban the phrase "be all end all" from ever being used again on these forums. Who do I talk to about that?
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