1. The deck gained popularity with the printing of Countryside Crusher. I think it's been fairly stable ever since then, if it has lost popularity it would be due to the infatuation of Natural Order, but I don't think it really has lost that much popularity. Loam is played, but not in every metagame.Originally Posted by Seriously
2. I don't know if it's every been a dtb because of the different versions of the deck. Instead of making a thread for GR and GRB versions they just keep one thread and make it a DTW. Also, I'm not so sure that it's placed well enough recently to make it a DTB. See the guidelines here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=5460
3. Not it hasn't really become outdated. There are some nifty cards printed in recent sets, cards like ravens crime and such.
4a & 4b. I don't really know, I didn't really read much of the GP info.
5. The deck is very resilient. It's not easy to hate on it because there are so many different engines and strategies within the deck. If you board in graveyard removal then you get beaten by the big guys that stick. If you bring in both creature removal and gy hate then you have to make sure you can stop seismic assault. In order to beat the deck you have to focus on these points:
1. Creature removal
2. GY Control
3. Loam engine
4. Recurring creatures due to Volrath's Stronghold/Eternal witness/Genesis (although genesis isn't played that much anymore).
And you have to do this while protecting your lands and making sure the loam player doesn't get cards like chalice of the void and seismic assault online.
6. Decks that are a tough matchup:
1. Combo
2. Combo
3. Combo
Also, some decks can just storm out the gates like faerie/dragon stompy. If they storm out the gates and you have a slower hand then chances are they'll take that game.
Natural Order Thresh can also be a pain if they get a Progenitus online, but you have ways of dealing with that deck so it's about 50/50.
All of these answers depend on your build obviously.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Aggrocontrol in general: out DD, I just don't board it out vs. Merfolk and Thrash (TA isn't present where I play so I've never tested DD in this MU).
@Seriously: Loam has lost popularity with the print of Relic (but this card gives every deck not reliant on its own GY a cantriping out against Loam/recurionengines or Tarmogoyf in general).
Board Hate against Loam ist quite simpel, but it's not that easy to hate (Crusher and SA are not reliant on your GY, so Relic can't seal the deal on it's own f.e.)
There will never be another me
Six Aggro Loam decks made Day Two. As I said some pages earlier...
Apart from one guy, the Day 2 Aggro Loam decklists are almost exactly the same:
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Seismic Assault
0-2 Terminate
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
0-1 Terravore (!)
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Again, most of this you can figure out yourself. However, I'm in a nice mood right now, so I'll feed the trolls a little.
1) The deck's popularity has remained stable for some time now. It's a solid deck that most people don't pick up on, probably because there's no blue in it.
2) It is a deck to beat - it regularly makes top eight appearances and occasionally wins tournaments. I haven't kept track of the status, but I'm not sure why it would have been downgraded, if that was the case.
3) No. What makes you say that?
4) a) Check the Wizards site and the day two lists for this.
b) It's a very solid deck that doesn't play blue. Counterbalance was projected to be one of the most-played cards at the GP, so that probably scared some people away from playing it. However, it's pretty easy to play around Counter-Top without having to resort to retarded tricks, if you know what you're doing. Players without that level of experience probably opted not to pick up the deck.
5) It depends on the build and the experience level of the pilot. Graveyard hate and Counterbalance are some of the most common hate strategies, but neither of them are particularly devastating if you've encountered them before and have some idea of how to handle them. There's also the fact that the deck has a very powerful early and mid-game, making it difficult to hate out of a game before you die.
6) That should be obvious from browsing this thread, even in the last few pages. Those decks haven't really picked anything new up lately, so the machups are about the same.
because Im broke and I dont want to invest a lot of money in a deck that is either dying or slowly on its way out. I built goblins cause it was a DTW/DTB, and even though it still is, its sort of lost some popularity. I had belcher, but decided to switch to TES, its taken me over 3 months and a couple hundred bucks to do that. and, well, in that time, its fallen out of the DTW/DTB. I almost built solidarity like a year ago, Im glad I didnt now. I've always wanted to build ichorid, but was always busy building something else and its somewhat dead now too, except for a little GP excitement with it. legacy is too expensive to build a deck and have be or become outdated by the time you're done building it.
I've only browsed back about 5-6 pages and read the first page. between the DTB section and the Established decks section, there are probably like what, 50-60 decent decks out there ? and each thread has what, an average of 40+ pages ? I cant know every last deck in and out. I cant read every last post posted. I cant know every last variant or card choice. sometimes, its been a long day and Im too tired to think or google something and just want a simple answer.
The topic of expensive cards has been around for a while, one of the better solutions is to slowly collect the staple cards while playing a cheap deck for a while that is still competitive. I think if you can shell out ~$200 for now then build something like dragon stompy. It's competitive and you can realistically place well enough to get prizes until you can get your hands on cards like tarmogoyfs and duals.
#mtgfinance follow on twitter: @mtgStaples
Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
I can build the majority of this deck by using cards from other decks. but sometimes missing a few cards is still a lot. I dont own any of the following:
x4 mox diamond ($80), x4 life from the loam ($15), x2 seismic assault ($5), x4 dark confidant ($30), x3 taiga ($75), x0 terravore ? or x2 devastating dreams ($6).
thats $211 or just about for those.
with getting them all in exact amounts or playsets and having the shipping at an average of $2. minimum, thats another $14 in shipping alone.
taking the total to finish the deck to $225, give or take.
Im the stay at home parent, my wife works. I dont always have that kind of extra cash laying around to buy cards to play a game. Im not in the position to buy cards for a deck thats on its way out, is all Im saying.
@ Seriously: If you want to make sure that you're buying a deck that will stay in the format and remain competitive for as long as possible, then I personally would chose Threshold because it can very easily be adjusted in case the metagame changes. Furthermore there are so many different variants of the deck that you can adjust it to your personal playstyle or at least netdeck the variant you like best.
I've recently played a standard RGb Aggro Loam list with Burning Wish and Chalice of the Void maindeck, 2 EE main...to a 3rd place finish out of 31 people in a local tournament. While I was in general pleased with the deck's performance I was absolutely not happy with my sideboard.
Sideboard: 15
1 Life from the loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Primal Command (Goyfsligh is popular at the moment in our meta)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Jund Charm
2 Tormod's Crypt
Actually all but the wishboard and Krosan Grip were next to useless in the games I played. I had problems in the Dreadstill matchup lately and added 2 Ancient Grudge to the board, but those were actually crap. They get hit by Counterbalance, Blue Elemental Blast and Spell Snare way too often.
Furthermore I definitely need an answer to fast decks like Goyfsligh or Canadian Threshold. Wht do you think of Kitchen Finks or Ravenous Baloth in the sideboard? (Confinement would be a perfect fit with a light white splash, but it loses most of it's value postboard)
I'll definitely add the 4th Korsan Grip because it is just so important to answer Counterbalance and this card is the easiest way to do so.
I also feel, that it's probably necessary to run a Chainer's Edict as a wishtarget to answer Tombstalker/ Dreadnought/ Progenitus/ Tarmogoyf.
However I don't want to make my wishboard too big (6 cards would be the absolute maximum for me) as I still want to have a real sideboard.
My approach to the combo matchup is: Either lose it, or get lucky and blow them out with Chalice and Devastating Dreams.
@ D.Dreams vs. Thresh:
I've found that there is usually a short window of opportunity to disable them before they reach stability. The scenario usually boils down to having Chalice @1 and about 3-4 mana. They usually have between 1-3 lands out (you are applying pressure on their mana base with Wasteland), perhaps a Goyf or Bob, and maybe a Top. D.Dreams for 2 or 3 here is HUGE. It resets them back to turn 1, even if it they still have Goyf out. With Countryside Crusher it means you can wait a turn or 2 and let it grow then crash in for some big damage.
@ Sideboard:
Here's what I run:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Extirpate//Offalsnout
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 DDreams
1 Life from the Loam
1 Hull Breach
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Shattering Spree
I've found that Dredge is nearly impossible to beat if they have a good draw, and the reason for those wins are always combo finishes with a horde of hasty 3/3s. Solution: stop Bridge from Below or nullify the tokens. Since there are only 2 EE's in the deck, it's not consistent enough to rely on these. I've tried Jund Charm (too slow) and Tormod's Crypt which has worked well but are narrow cards. Offalsnout is even more narrow but achieves the best results as it removes Bridges as well as the Dread Returns target all in one swoop. I also have a large combo metagame and Extirpate also double duties against them with Thorn of Amethyst.
I saw somebody a page or two back say that they were playing Primal Command in their board because of the prevalence of Goyf-Sligh in their meta. Has anybody else tried this and if so how well does it work? There's occasionally Goyf-Sligh in my meta as well and I just fired the Zuran Orbs and added one Command but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
When looking through all the green sorceries that gain life it seems like it's the only one that's playable unfortunately. Previous to adding Command I had been playing Zuran Orb in my board as I said, two of em, and wasn't really happy with it. My teammate (so to speak) and I usually play the same 75 and the Orbs have worked out really well for him but I never seem to be able to draw them. Orb is really powerful if you get it into play; it gets Crusher out of bolt range immediately, and if they don't deal with it quickly you just win. The downside is that it's competing for precious SB space and the fact that you only have access to it games two and three and that you have to actually draw one.
With Command you have access to it game one with Wish, and games two and three you have access to four copies (you don't board it in). The modes that I assume would be used the most against burnish decks are putting a land on top and gaining seven life. You're basically blanking three of their cards. The land on top is one, and then the seven life is about two burn spells. Another thing to remember is that it can't be countered if they Fireblast their land at you as the life gain mode also targets. There's also some added utility in that it will randomly be useful in matches where you wouldn't bring in the Orbs.
Some downsides are that it has a significant mana cost and it doesn't necessarily just win like Orb does.
For reference here's my list circa the GP
Thanks to thestarkingtonpost for the decklist
http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/?page_id=443
Aggro Loam
Christopher Pennock
Grand Prix-Chicago
4 wasteland
2 mountain
3 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
4 forgotten cave
3 tranquil thicket
2 taiga
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 forest
1 volrath’s stronghold
3 life from the loam
4 burning wish
4 mox diamond
4 countryside crusher
1 terravore
2 engineered explosives
2 terminate
2 seismic assault
4 chalice of the void
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
Sideboard
1 life from the loam
1 shattering spree
1 chainer’s edict
1 devastating dreams
1 reverent silence
4 leyline of the void
3 krosan grip
3 thorn of amethyst
Current differences: MD -1 Terminate +1 Engineered Explosives
SB -2 Thorn of Amethyst +1 Terminate +1 Primal Command
This 75 (I believe) also got two other people into day 2, Curt Snow and Jacob Garber. My day 2 ended with THREE (argh) loses to various burn archetypes. One of my two losses day one was to burn as well. Scouting of the GPTs on Friday found very few red decks so we decided to drop the Zuran Orbs for more combo hate. Whoops
Primal Command seems kinda clunky. It's viable in Survival's wishboard because they have Rofellos to power it out, and have Witness to recur it. 7 mana to gain 7 life and either library-bounce a land or find a big dude may be swingy enough, but seems more likely that you'll be unable to cast it in time, or they will just ignore it and be able to deal the 7 extra damage while your mana is tied up. If you're running white, Renewing Dawn is a techy wish target against Burn/Goyf Sligh, and is a lot more manageable at 4 total mana.
That being said, it is probably the best non-white option we have, so it might be worth it to run in a Burn/Sligh-infested meta.
You're right it is of course rather clunky, but the question remains, is it too clunky? As I noted in my previous post, it does cost a lot but it also has upsides that other cards/strategies do not. I think most people are not playing white, so Renewing Dawn is unavailable.
The way I see it there are three strategies for defeating burn. You can try to just race it by getting a threat down and then casting Dreams. Chalice helps here but you basically have to just prey they can't kill you first. Then there are the two aforementioned strategies of one Primal Command, or two Zuran Orb (or more, that's all I could fit in my board).
In my experience trying to race them typically results in losing the match. Don't get me wrong sometimes you get a first turn chalice at one, followed by threat, followed by Dreams and you win. Just as often it seems they have the Smash to Smithereens for Chalice, and then are able to burn you out before Dreams resolves. Zuran Orb takes a lot of SB space and you still have to draw a 2-of in games two and three. Command is slow. I still think more often than not you'll have the opportunity to cast it. Burnish decks usually don't kill by the fifth turn, you've got some other ways to interact with them to slow them down. If you are able to survive long enough to cast it, it seems like Command is the best option.
I don't play MD Dreams, so no dilemma about whether or not to board it out for me. I find that the Thresh matchup usually revolves around Counter Balance and their various control magics. If you can get CB off the board you're usually in good shape. Having a creature stolen at an inopportune time is another way to lose, fortunately this situation is much easier to play around. *I forgot to say that Leyline is really important for those Thresh decks that have it. Fighting it is very similar tactically to fighting CB. With Reverent Silence it's possible to take care of both of them even.
In my experience Dreams is never important against them and if I had it in the MD I would for sure board it out. They have so many things to stop it, CB, spell snare, FoW, Daze if its early, add that to the fact that it's only good once you're set up. If you cast Dreams early and they counter it it can be a blowout for them. It seems like going for the long game strategy is the most profitable. It's not like you're playing against combo or something where they can do something really dangerous with their mana, you don't NEED to nuke all the land. By the time it gets late you should be doing things with your mana that are much more powerful than what they're doing.
Last edited by Destavi; 04-16-2009 at 04:36 AM. Reason: Reply to earlier question about SB in my post about SB
A new card spoiled on MTGSal...
Maelstrom Pulse 1BG
Sorcery
Destroy target nonland permanent
and all other permanents with the
same name as that permanent
I'm excited! The 4-5 removal slots in my deck bounce between Explosives, Terminate, and Grip, and this looks better than any of those in the main. Many times did I wish that I could play Vindicate, and not for the land destruction part. There might be situations where you can't destroy a Goyf because you have your own out, but in general I don't think that part will matter.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Shit, yeah. I was so busy thinking about how good this will be in two of my EDH decks that I didn't even think about it's place in Loam. More ways to kill Counter Balance! DING! And it's a wish target =) Do you (or anybody else) have any specific thoughts on where it will fit into your removal suite?
I think I'll try out replacing an Explosives and both Terminates, one SB, one MD. Pulse seems to be strictly superior at fulfilling the role Terminate plays. Explosives is so good right now though, I'm hesitant to cut one. However, having more than one explosives can be clunky, and Pulse is just as good at stopping an early Goyf rush while also being more versatile.
Last edited by Destavi; 04-16-2009 at 07:56 AM. Reason: spelling error
If will for sure test it in my wishboard, but I don´t think it will be in the MB. I just don´t like having 2-3 more 3cmc´ers.
The obvious problem with this in your wishboard as a sollution to Counterbalance, is that you have to cast a 2cmc card to get it.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I don't think I was clear in my last post. What I meant to communicate is that I would get rid of one Terminate in the MD, one EE in the MD, and also one Terminate in the board. That would be 2 Maelstrom Pulse main, and one in the board.
So for my list, in the main it will make it easier to have a shot at killing CB. I was also commenting that there would just be general added utility of having it in the board. For fighting CB specifically of course Reverent Silence is a better Wish target.
If you're taking out say Explosives for M-Pulse then you're maintaining casting cost parity or better. Even if you're taking out Terminate I think the extra mana is worth all the upside, although most people do run more 3cc spells than I do.
When will maelstorm pulse be legal? I think it's worth testing in my seismic assault slot
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
I don't play EE mainboard anymore. So in my case it would be Terminate into Pulse. Wich means 10 3cmc'ers, and that's just too much imo. Even more since I'm running a Chalice build with, obviously, no 1 cmc'ers.
What? No! Just.. no. I wouldn't even want to cut King Assault for Vindicate if it would have costed 1GB.
Pulse potentially replaces EE or Terminate. Seismic Assault is untouchable, imo.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
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