Sometimes it's better to admit you're wrong and just move on, rather than dig your heels in. Not always, mind you, but sometimes. Just sayin'.
Sylvan Library is suboptimal and redundant. You don't run a suboptimal/redundant card in hopes that you will happen to have another particular card in play at the same time, especially when that particular card is just fine by itself.
If you really want to devote extra slots in your deck to making Coatl bigger, just run some more cantrips.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Originally Posted by Volt
He is right to say that cards shouldn't be evaluated in a vacuum -- it is a vicious problem instead of a linear one. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with his take on a deck to fit Coatl, but it's worth trying out instead of simply dismissing a certain card as suboptimal and redundant. After all, CB/Top was dismissed as an extended combo which shouldn't have any large-scale impact on legacy, or something along those lines. If a deck using sylvan library manages to put up some interesting testing numbers, I don't see why not.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
The problem with Coatl is that you don't have to build a deck around it, so probably those of you who are thinking crap like library is needed also now have an explanation for why it's not evident to you that the card is broken. Also, I happen to think it's far more threatening than goyf, but even those who think it's only ~goyf, why isn't that one heck of an alarm? "Oh, it's only tarmogoyf 5-8." Okay, can I have mana drain back please? It's "only" counterspell 5-8.
Actually mana drain would make control more viable, but whatever.
The way to punish coatl isn't to deal with it, but the decks running it will necessarily run a 3rd color. (Because U, G cannot remove creatures and thresh lacks card advantage spells, which black provides in dark confidant and snuff out. Some threshold decks will even splash a 4th color because snuff out is inferior to swords to plowshares, and then one picks up some sideboard options, as nassif did.)
I believe a way (only slight testing) to punish coatl and multicolor decks in general that our format has been dying for is the following (Notice how people splash a color just to run 1 card, as if splashing a color costs absolutely nothing. This is a sign that legacy has not been punishing enough):
Okay, obviously run 4 wastelands unless you yourself are a 3-4-color deck with no room. This applies to everybody.
Now I'm speaking for aggro control specifically:
also run crucible of worlds in the sideboard. It hoses counterbalance mana, vedalken shackles from NLU, 4cc like sower of temptation, sometimes 3cc or at the very least causes it to be played into daze, is good vs. control, is moderate (at least better than deadweight) against tendrils, is good against team america, aggro loam etc. etc.
Notice that crucible is far superior to back to basics because you run your own nonbasics, and presumably you run blue, so you can find your wastelands. Also, crucible is not dead should your opponent happen to fetch basic lands, which is a pretty typical response to hate. You can still bring back your factory every turn to block this monster.
I'm not saying it's any less broken than previously stated. It's just one way I see to punish decks for being so greedy as to want the best of the best from every color is just to wasteland them 3-4 times.
I await with breathless anticipation your admission.
Don't try to make Lorescale Coatl into Countryside Crusher. You don't need any cards to support it that you shouldn't already be running.
You run 56x broken shit, 4x more broken shit.
Do you talk about the 55x lands 1x Souls Fire 4x Countryside Crusher deck?
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Sylvan Library is better than it's being given credit for. It gives you the filter effect of cantrips every turn without the mana investment, making it a sort of lesser SDT. It's nearly as excellent with shuffle effects as Brainstorm, and it's freaking nuts with Lorescale Coatl. Heck, it can even be a source of card advantage in some situations.
I wouldn't run it over any number of Brainstorm, Ponder, or SDT, and I wouldn't run more than two, but it has been good for me so far.
Also, I can't believe Standstill is barely being discussed. It's a stupid good card made even more stupidly good by Coatl.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
once the coatl gets larger than 7 or 8, it doesn't matter how large it is anymore. you either win in two turns or it gets chumped/removed. after one turn and a brainstorm, coatl is already at 6. sylvan library is a reasonable idea but even if the "combo" is in place, it's not even close to the power of stifle-nought.
QFT
LOL do not speak as if Aggro loam is broken. You have to be a die-hard fan to be even capable of believing that. When the word "broken" is uttered, nothing less than playing 10/10's for 3, 5/6's for 2, and locking your opponent out of the game for UU while drawing extra cards every turn off dark confidant is meant. Pay 1GGRR, skip your draw to draw 3 cards? Not broken. Not playing counterbalance lock? Not even playing brainstorm fetchland? Not even playing blue? Not broken. How, then, is it that you think that playing terravore and countryside crusher is at no cost? Here's a reasonable measure of whether a deck has to bend to play a card X:
Would you play the deck without card X?
For NLU, where X is equal to Coatl, the answer is yes. See: GP: Chicago.
For Aggro loam, the answer is no. Well yes, if you play different colors but then other suitable analogies can be made with other cards that people have (ridiculously) called similar, such as knight of the reliquary.
The point was threshold was just happily dominating the format, then all of the sudden, this 1UG for an 8/8 slips into the format and threshold does nothing more than -4 craps +4 coatl. It didn't have to go:
-56 good cards
+56 aggro loam cards
Anyway, people should just run crucible wasteland lock to hate out the cards that are likely to come with coatl. Hating out the coatl itself is hard, but you hate out the other stuff so that way swords doesn't get CB'd and doesn't need to target his other trash, etc. etc.
One of the places I'm considering going at this point is to remove SDT completely from the deck. Because I'm testing 4x Sylvan Library and 2x SDT I'm finding Counter/Library to be the combo in play most often and it's working well enough at this point that I'm thinking of going with just Sylvan Library and Brainstorm as combos with Counterbalance. I didn't appreciate until I started testing this exactly how broken Counterbalance is on it's own, its by far the more broken half of the combo.
I don't know that I will wind up doing that, but counter to the experience that some people here are apparently having I keep drawing into Sensei's Divining Top and suppressing it with Sylvan Library because I don't want it at the moment.
I'm thinking about replacing the 2x Sensei's Divining Top with a Pulse of The Grid and a Berserk.
The list I'm trying really does not feel like Threshold and I'm exploring ways to amp up the explosiveness without losing control.
Edit: I should say at this point that the list is probably right on the edge of being too random without Ponder, to remove the SDT's but I'm looking at it.
Okay then, why not put your money where your mouth is? Let's see some MWS/Apprentice logs. I'm interested in just what you're testing against and how effective your deck actually is.
Last edited by majikal; 04-29-2009 at 01:16 AM.
I'm testing against friends over the table. Threshold Ugw, Landstill Uw, Goblins and Goyf Sligh so far. Haven't looked at it against anything else at this point because those are the things my group plays. I'm hoping to look at it against Ichorid and Affinity this weekend when I go down to NY.
I'm pretty sure the basic deck is good enough that pretty much anything you do will post "good testing results."
Nobody cares that your deck beats UW Landstill, Goyf Sligh or Thresh Ugw. All you have to do to beat those decks is be Thresh Ugw and add Coatl x4 and you win. Those aren't good measures.I'm testing against friends over the table. Threshold Ugw, Landstill Uw, Goblins and Goyf Sligh so far. Haven't looked at it against anything else at this point because those are the things my group plays. I'm hoping to look at it against Ichorid and Affinity this weekend when I go down to NY.
People care whether or not the deck beats UW Landstill, Goyf Sligh, and Thresh Ugw MORE than the decklists everyone else is proposing.
In order to compare, you'd have to play both the CB/top build and the Sylvan Library build pretty extensively.
It's not at all clear to me that I ever said this beat anything MORE than anything else. Do we have a problem here? Because I am feeling some hostility here.
Again, I don't particularly care if CB/Top beats those decks more than the Sylvan Library build. All I've said in this thread is that in the list I'm playing Sylvan Library is doing pretty good at this point at making Coatl nice and big. I've also said that Sylvan Library and Counterbalance is a pretty nice combo, which it really is.
Anybody who is taking my statements to indicate that the list I'm playing is anything more than a good list that is testing well needs to get a life and stop reading things into what I'm saying.
Or alternately at least quote the relevant sections that I've written where I claim that the list I'm playing is clearly superior to any other Ug list trying to abuse coatl. I don't think you're going to find those but feel free to go looking.
Is it really being debated whether Lorescale Coatl + Sylvan Library synergy is on par (or outweighs) Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top synergy?
TPDMC
No. FoolofaTook is suggesting it, and everyone else is shooting the idea down while he desperately clings to it.Is it really being debated whether Lorescale Coatl + Sylvan Library synergy is on par (or outweighs) Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top synergy?
Not so much a debate as it is a gangbang.
That's where you misunderstand everyone else. We don't care if you play Sylvan Library. We mind that you keep posting how good it is when you're apparently too chickenshit to want to discuss it.
Your claim is that, "I can build a deck with Sylvan Library and Coatl that can win games." That's not worth posting. Everyone in the world agrees with that position, and thus it's stupid to say and a big waste of time to read or write. "I think Hitler shouldn't have killed the Jews. Please discuss."
You apparently don't even make the extremely mild claim, "I think Sylvan Library should seriously be considered, it's playing as well as CB/Top versions because it lets you run tops 5 and 6." Which is totally reasonable, and that would be interesting to debate, and that's what everyone is debating. This is what everyone THINKS you're saying, because we gave you the benefit of the doubt that you're not a dumb troll who makes posts, "I think Hitler shouldn't have killed all the Jews. Please discuss."
All you're doing is saying, "I play Sylvan Library. Oh, you want to debate that? Well, I did play Sylvan Library! Neener neener neener! I win! When did I ever say you should play it? Never! That's when! I just said that I had played it in the past, therefore I win the debate neener neener neener! 1-0!"
If you think that your deck is worse than decks running CB/Top (which it seems like you're admitting now), then pack your bags, hot shot, you're done here. We don't care about a suboptimal build. Go post in N&D or better yet post on MTGSalvation as a "budget" deck for people who can't afford Sensei's Diving Top.
If you think your deck is moderately playable and want to discuss it: Welcome to the debate.
I'll start you off with a dissenting opinion: You're wrong to cut SDT for Sylvan Library due to the synergy between SDT and Counterbalance and the synergy between two SDTs and Lorescale Coatl (far surpassing the +2/+2 per turn given from Sylvan Library), and the fact that top costs 1 and dodges artifact removal. I think the synergy with Bob is also important as is the fact that it's not as dead in multiples (you can always cast it and wait for a fetchland, then draw and shuffle away, whereas Sylvan Library would require a Brainstorm and Fetchland).
Not necessarily the pros/cons in that order, but to continue: I think the criticism that Top requires mana is largely irrelevant in the light of Library costing 1G.
I also like that top can be used during your upkeep turn 2 to help you try to strike the second land, and the fact that it's a one-drop in a deck light on one-drops and heavy on two drops. The second turn is really quite cramped by comparison.
Forbiddian wins the thread. Now, who wants cake?
No he doesn't, because
GODWIN'S LAAAAAAAW
Game over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled unproductive bickering.
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