[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Jaynel]

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Null Rod (Null Rod is a HUGE reason behind running 14 lands and no LED)
3 Firestorm (4 is one too many, I found myself never boarding in the whole set.)

2-3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
(These 5-6 slots are pretty flexible. It all depends on personal preference and what you fear the most. It could be some combination of Ingot Chewers and Wispmares, but again: we should take advantage of being able to flashback [and hardcast] spells.)

1 Ancestor's Chosen (Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Goblins)
1-2 Eternal Witness/Llawan, Cephalid Empress/Reveillark/Darkblast/whatever

I ran double Paradise for a while, and fanning open hands with two of them were the worst. It was an easy choice: I'd rather take 3 from Citadel then give up a turn.

Why run Inkwell Leviathan? It really only seems good against U/g/x aggro-control, which we already have a rather favorable matchup against (especially if running Null Rods).

[Vespero82]

So even though this is first time posting I have been keeping up on the discussion of cards to include and decklists posted by others and want to share a build that I got from starcitygames that I really think is strong, plus a report on a tournament I went to. First the list,

Land
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Colesium
4 Gemstone Mine

Creatures
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomeba

Enchantment
4 Bridge From Below

Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

SB
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Wispmare
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revalation
1 Ancient Grudge

Round 1: This first round was against red green Aggro Loam in which he won the die roll and went first. He starts with taiga and passes, while I open with Gem mine and play putrid imp. He proceeds to drop a wasteland and chalice for 1. This is where breakthrough is better than Life from the loam as I am able to drop cards in the graveyard dredge with my draw and then break through. Even if he destroyed my colesium I would have still been able to drop citadel for colorless to get around chalice. I proceed to win after that.
The second game I proceed to sideboard in chain of vapor, pithing needle, Ray of revalation, ancient grudge. The second game I win on the back of Ichorid and bridge from below thanks to the fact that his tarmogoyf cant die because it is to big, me getting zombies, and him dredging his answers with loam.

Round 2: Counterslivers (W/U) The first game was weird as I had to keep a hand of 5 and him also a hand of 5. He start with land and I also play a land and proceed to drop imp which he dazes. I continue to drop lands while he gets stuck trying to find lands using both a brainstorm and a ponder, eventually I get to 3 lands and drop a stinkweed imp which he forces. He proceeds to drop a sinew sliver and passes. My turn I dredge stinkweed and proceed to cast one of the two dread returns in my hand targeting another stinkweed in the yard. This is actually good because he has only one card in hand and i need the dread returns in the yard. He casts a second sinew and swings which I block with stinky. I then proceed to dredge and hit a narcomeba and hardcast the second stink with one still in the yard. Pretty much the game ends as I take 6 damage over two turns but pop two cephalids that overwhelm his lone plated sliver after I block sinew when he swings again. The second round is much of the same thing except he sided in a burreton forge tender for the bridges which I needle (following the same exact sideboard plan as the previous round) and when he made the mistake of going alpha strike with a winged sliver, sinew sliver, mutavault, meddeling mage (naming dread return) and burreton. I take the damage from everything except the mage which I Block with a zombie token. and proceed to win by bringing back 2 ichorids dredging into a narco ( 2 in play) sacing 3 of my 5 zombies tokens and bringing flamekin for lethal.

Round 3: I play some kid who brought some weird 5 color deck. He was not prepared for ichorid and I stomp him since he can only make token creatures that do not remove my bridges.

Round 4: B/W aggro with vindicates, hymns, confidants and all that good stuff. The first game I just overwhelm him with ichorids, imp, bridges, and some good dredging. The second game I lead early with some ichorid damage even though he has relic out first turn. I force him to pop it after I deal 7 and have 2 zombies (He swords the imp that got the one damage in) out also he has a dark confidant out. I proceed to do zombie beat down which leaves him in a weird position. I have a a thug and stinkweed in play after struggling to get to three land (sinkhole wasteland vindicate), he has killed both my zombies earlier after dropping some tidehallow scullers, his top is not finding him answers and eventually he trades thug with confidant and stinkweed with edict I proceed to dredge and eventually hit two bridges and a narcomeba. the life totals are 7 (him) and 3(me) he proceeds to crypt me since he realizes that he has at least two turns before its over (since I am casting thug and stinkweed) One of which I dredged and another I drew. He can not find an answer and I win.

Please remember that I am doing this from memory so some of the details might be off, but I am recalling them as best as possible. I will end with this though, I think that LED-less ichorid is such an amazing deck as I have also played against dragon stompy and counterbalance and won just because of how resilient it is and how it doesn't necessarily have to cast anything to win.

[jimirynk]

SB
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Wispmare
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revalation
1 Ancient Grudge

Wait 4 wipmare or 2?

[Vespero82]

sorry, 2 wispmare.

[jimirynk]

@Jaynel
Are list are only 2 card off you run 4 ichorids I run 3 and 1 darkblast.
I don't run null rod so I run 2 paradises as of right now.

Why run Inkwell Leviathan? It really only seems good against U/g/x aggro-control, which we already have a rather favorable matchup against (especially if running Null Rods).

Inkwell is in the board do to the fact that uwg thresh is getting bigger right now and I wanted a fatty vs all countertop decks and simply they can not deal with it.

I was running null rod for a while till I realized the decks that ran splits of cypt/ee/relic also ran artifact hate..
If there a good player(which the ppl I play test are) they don't side them out.
Also countertop either sides in Ancient grudge with their k grips MD or their playing gwu thresh with 4 pridemage MD which stay in DAZE which punches null rod in the dick and half the list run spell snar over ponder??
SO lets think the match ups were null rod is superior it gets peed on by 5-10 spots as you side them in.

[Jaynel]

@Jaynel
Are list are only 2 card off you run 4 ichorids I run 3 and 1 darkblast.
I don't run null rod so I run 2 paradises as of right now.



Inkwell is in the board do to the fact that uwg thresh is getting bigger right now and I wanted a fatty vs all countertop decks and simply they can not deal with it.

I was running null rod for a while till I realized the decks that ran splits of cypt/ee/relic also ran artifact hate..
If there a good player(which the ppl I play test are) they don't side them out.
Also countertop either sides in Ancient grudge with their k grips MD or their playing gwu thresh with 4 pridemage MD which stay in DAZE which punches null rod in the dick and half the list run spell snar over ponder??
SO lets think the match ups were null rod is supierour it get peed on by 5-10 spots as you side them in.

You're responding pretty aggressively. I'm not attacking you, so please chill out.

How is Pithing Needle better than Null Rod, besides dodging Daze to an extent?

[jimirynk]

You're responding pretty aggressively. I'm not attacking you, so please chill out.

How is Pithing Needle better than Null Rod, besides dodging Daze to an extent?

I'm not trying to attack you filling out job apps and posting is frustrating..

Most of the format right now typically runs 3-4 sideboard cards vs. dredge.
Most match ups you know what they're going to side in, and needle is always easier to get down on the table with spell snar daze wasteland discard and sometimes not mulliganing to a hand with 2 lands + a null rod.

Also in certain match ups like gobs you know they side in x relics. If they go first turn fanatic you go first turn needle on fanatic, and continue playing and the you can put a needle on relic.

I'm not saying null rod is bad I love the card but right now in the meta I think I'll stick with needle.

[Jaynel]

Most of the format right now typically runs 3-4 sideboard cards vs. dredge.
Most match ups you know what they're going to side in, and needle is always easier to get down on the table with spell snar daze wasteland discard and sometimes not mulliganing to a hand with 2 lands + a null rod.

True, Needle is almost always easier to resolve. But Needle isn't always as relevant in U/g/x aggro-control matchup because of their diverse hate. We have so many cards that they're forced to counter (permanent discard outlets, Cabal Therapy, and Careful Study). Once resolved, Null Rod turns off SDT, which makes it harder for them to dig for answers, and turns off ALL hate for just one more mana. Most U/g/x aggro-control decks aren't packing land and hand disruption, so the one mana more seems negligible.

Also in certain match ups like gobs you know they side in x relics. If they go first turn fanatic you go first turn needle on fanatic, and continue playing and the you can put a needle on relic.

Null Rod here shuts off Vial and Relic. We have Firestorms to deal with Fanatic before we start going crazy. Though I can see how Needle is much easier to cast facing Wasteland/Rishadan Port. It's probably better in these matchups, but I think Firestorm buys enough time to get going.

I'm not saying null rod is bad I love the card but right now in the meta I think I'll stick with needle.

I'm going to reconsider Needle, possibly include them in addition to Null Rod. Good luck with applications, they suck

[jimirynk]

I'm going to reconsider Needle, possibly include them in addition to Null Rod. Good luck with applications, they suck

My side board a couple pages back had 4 null rods and 3 needles, but after testing I switched to 4 needles 3 null rods.
I then cut the rods down to 2 due to the lack of diverse boards vs. me.
But I said in a diverse meta I would think about running 3 and 3.

On another note I don't play fire storm, haven't tested with it but I never would have enough cards to side it in vs. swarm due to siding in either needle or cov.

I think that is why you like null rod more and I like needle?

[Vespero82]

I have to agree with jimirynk on needle. Needle sometimes just hits things beyond crypt and relic, like creatures that sac themselves. I think needle is more useful because during game two you have a more reactive stance since you are responding to the opponents first turn. So it can react to sac creatures, crypt, wasteland, relic, cycle lands... Also it allows you to keep hands that only have one land so you can start dropping imps and tribes to bait dazes so a needle can resolve, or you can just drop a second land.

[jimirynk]

I think it all depends on what you plan on seeing.


Also the darkblast is now a lark.
I tested a archangel vs. goyfsligh and all it does is timewalk and kill a creature..
Lark/sage helps but I might make it two sages.

[Joe_C]

This is the board I am working with now:

4 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Undecided(may be another dread return target or a ray of revelation or ancient grudge)

This seems pretty sturdy at the moment

[jimirynk]

After testing vs gwu thresh..... my head hurts.
Needle don't got what it takes. they run after board k grip/ee/crypt/teeg/relic/pridemage/ all wrapped around trinket mage daze s.s force..

Need 4 rods for this match up will test at another time..
going to bed.

[1maarten1]

Updated list:

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 ????? ( either a darkblast/thug/breakthrough/ or a DR target..)
Board:

4 Pithing Needle/null rod (meta game choice)
4 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 ???? ( either a DR target if not one MD/ or maybe a Cov)


This is the list, the Inkwell in the board might come out if their is a archangel MD that's just overkill, CoV are impressing me less and less do to the fact I never side them in.. this might be do to the fact I know how all the tier decks side vs us..

Another note Undiscovered Paradise make it difficult to hard cast the ancient grudge and ray games 2/3.. just informing ppl.

Also on the DR target in the board akroma seems pretty decent in this spot do to the fact that you only side it in vs the matchups its mvp in.( this is if there is no archangel md.

Nice list, agree with you with every take, only i would go for the third cov in the side and 1 darkblast md for reasons stated earlier. It really helps you in some matchups, i would rather have it then an later DR target i think.

~Maarten

[BKclassic]

I'm not trying to attack you filling out job apps and posting is frustrating..

Most of the format right now typically runs 3-4 sideboard cards vs. dredge.
Most match ups you know what they're going to side in, and needle is always easier to get down on the table with spell snar daze wasteland discard and sometimes not mulliganing to a hand with 2 lands + a null rod.

Also in certain match ups like gobs you know they side in x relics. If they go first turn fanatic you go first turn needle on fanatic, and continue playing and the you can put a needle on relic.

I'm not saying null rod is bad I love the card but right now in the meta I think I'll stick with needle.

I think y'all need to reconsider Unmask. It seems pretty solid against UGW decks and a solid way to help you lay down your Rod.

[jimirynk]

I have but it seems very unlikely to me that im going to side in 4 null rods and 2(?) unmasks, and then draw a hand with 2 lands a null rod a unmask a black card and a dredger..

I like the idea but its hard to find cards to side out in that match up.
How I board is -3 breakthrough, -1 DR -lark. +4 null rod/pithing needle,+1 Inkwell .
Sometimes -1-2x for ancient grudges.
I'm testing the rods tonight to see how they perform in the match up.
I'm also thinking 4 ancient grudges might be better then null rods/needle.
You bait and relic or crypt, they drop E.E early vs us do to therapy.
I really like the power of grudge in this build do to the high amount of lands.

My side right now:
4 Pithing Needle( null rod if ancient grudge doesn't help)
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge( if testing goes bad I'm making 4 Leyline)
2 Wispmare(might due a 1/1 split with ray of revelation)
1 Inkwell Leviathan

[jimirynk]

I've found Reveillark to be a win-more card. If you were able to reanimate a Cephalid Sage from Rev for example, you could have just as easily DRed Sage back into play to clean out a huge chunk of your library. Likewise, you can also do something like DR FKZ directly for the instant win instead of reanimating Rev, saccing it to a Therapy and then reanimating FKZ.

The lark is in my MD do to goyf sligh/goblins being a 60-40 game one depending on how you dredge.
The lark was a single darkblast which really never helped vs those match ups.
But with lark being really good when your bridges have been removed its a one card powerhouse that almost always gets you win.

On a side not I have not played a match up were lark was bad in the MD.

[jimirynk]

My side right now:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Wispmare
1 Inkwell Leviathan

This is my board right now and I'm in love with it.
4 ancient grudges come in along side with an Inkwell vs. gwu thresh and out of the 6 games after board I only lost 1 due to a rip crypt then a couple turns later a ripped relic, but the game was still close.

[bum_man]

after testing lark and sage in the main deck, i don't believe they work great together. More often than not i still end up returning sage most of the time. I'll be moving Reveillark to the sb. Pre-board sage is just the better target, hands down. Since i run darkblast i dont have much use for lark pre-board.

This now makes my sb:
4 Chain of Vapor (-1 Cov for one more metagame slot)
3 Pithing Needle
3 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 CotV/Metagame Slots
1 Reveillark


Im trying out the 2 thug/2 darkblast split again to see if it will work out, again but instead of taking out the 4th therapy I'm thinking of cutting either the 2nd Sage or 3rd Breakthrough. I'm leaning towards cutting the 3rd breakthrough since this deck doesn't go for it as much. And having multiple sages enables the DDD approach to explode into win faster. Any thoughts are much appreciated. ^^

[jimirynk]

after testing lark and sage in the main deck, i don't believe they work great together. More often than not i still end up returning sage most of the time. I'll be moving Reveillark to the sb. Pre-board sage is just the better target, hands down. Since i run darkblast i dont have much use for lark pre-board.

The lark is a fall back plan I'm still testing match ups but the list shows good results vs:
Aggro loam/good match up
Gwu thresh/ good match up
Goyf sligh/ a little bumpy but favorable
Train wrech/good match up
Testing goblins right now.

Edit: I was wondering what you guys bring in and what you take out vs goblins(3color)?