[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

[Jeff Kruchkow]

@ Green One: Not maining a Tendrils seems like a bad idea. Meddling Mage naming wish hurts you a ton and you will randomly get screwed by the inability to go for IT->Tendrils instead of IT->BW->Tendrils.

@ Bryant: The only thing im not really sold on so far is dedicating so much main deck space to protection. It seems like were putting alot more emphasis on LEDs to do crazy stuff. I'm curious, so far how is your record vs. CB-Top and Thresh decks?

[Bryant Cook]

@ Bryant: The only thing im not really sold on so far is dedicating so much main deck space to protection. It seems like were putting alot more emphasis on LEDs to do crazy stuff. I'm curious, so far how is your record vs. CB-Top and Thresh decks?

I've had that much protection in there for awhile. So far, so good.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I've had that much protection in there for awhile. So far, so good.

Last list had 6, 7 if you count chain and honestly i got hands wayy to heavy in chants/duress against aggro.

And if the thresh matchup is improving then hopefully we can get some results up soon and get TES back into the DtB

[evilchen]

My bad, sorry. That sideboard is only 14, 15th card is Vindicate.

Guess its Mealstrom Pulse now or?

btw: does the additional land help much more than a cabal ritual? i never had problems with cabal yet :/

[GreenOne]

@ Green One: Not maining a Tendrils seems like a bad idea. Meddling Mage naming wish hurts you a ton and you will randomly get screwed by the inability to go for IT->Tendrils instead of IT->BW->Tendrils.

I'm playing an altered Mystical instead of a normal one, so I can tell when I'm drawing that instead of tendrils.
Right now I've lost 1 match to the lack of mana to go IT->BW->Tendrils. But I won 2 matches that I would have a chance of losing due to AN flips (like opponent playing Canadian Thresh with R open and me at 4 life at the end of resolution of AN) and other 2 matches that I won cause that Mystical was the only tutor in hand (well, I could have won topdecking a tutor anyway)
Playing with no MD win condition is playing with fire, and I'll probably do it only if people continues naming Tendrils or AN with their magi. By the way, are you playing against MD Meddling Magi? Cause if not we're also siding blasts, ETW and (maybe) bounce against them.

I'm not sure entirely what you mean here. Are some of those dashes supposed to be pluses? Empty the Warrens I try not to use too often, it's just easily answered and the risk/reward sometimes isn't worth it. I used to play 2x Xantid in the sideboard recently, but I'm already at too many cards to board in against blue. Pyroblast just seems more important to me being able to deal with counterbalance.

D'oh! Here's the deck, complete with understandable SB:
// Lands
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
3 [U] Underground Sea

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [US] Duress
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast

I wish for Duress a lot. I use Wish for bait and if they don't bite, I get Duress. I also used Returns a ton this past weekend, in 5 rounds I cast it probably 8-10 times.

I don't have duress SB, this is maybe a factor. I'm often unsure about grabbing an ETW or Returns. Usually take Returns if I have protection in hand and ETW if I don't (even if it's turn 2-3, if I don't expect EE/Deed/Pulse and I see an almost empty board).

I'm absolutely with you in cutting Brainstorm instead of ponder, even if the added Mystical can change the equation.
But I often side out IGG against FoW decks (usually for ETW), cause for it to be good you have to hit double protection (first chant/duress gets countered and you need a second one or loads of mana to recur your graveyard)
Am I doing it wrong?

[GoldenCid]

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast

Wow!!! 3 EtW? Why?? Isn't it so much??

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I'm playing an altered Mystical instead of a normal one, so I can tell when I'm drawing that instead of tendrils.
Right now I've lost 1 match to the lack of mana to go IT->BW->Tendrils. But I won 2 matches that I would have a chance of losing due to AN flips (like opponent playing Canadian Thresh with R open and me at 4 life at the end of resolution of AN) and other 2 matches that I won cause that Mystical was the only tutor in hand (well, I could have won topdecking a tutor anyway)
Playing with no MD win condition is playing with fire, and I'll probably do it only if people continues naming Tendrils or AN with their magi. By the way, are you playing against MD Meddling Magi? Cause if not we're also siding blasts, ETW and (maybe) bounce against them.

I'm absolutely with you in cutting Brainstorm instead of ponder, even if the added Mystical can change the equation.
But I often side out IGG against FoW decks (usually for ETW), cause for it to be good you have to hit double protection (first chant/duress gets countered and you need a second one or loads of mana to recur your graveyard)
Am I doing it wrong?

I have played against maindeck Meddling Mage and while you are right, most ppl name AdN or Tendrils and then we can just kill/bounce mage. However, better players have called a tutor or LED against me and screwed me hard. Just saying.

Also, while you are right, using LED against decks that run FoW is very difficult but i would still recomend keeping it in the MB. Because while it does need chant to be truly effective if they have used a FoW, not having a way to combo out with only a few cards after goyf beats is gonna be bad.

EDIT: @GoldenCid: I believe he sides 2-3 in against CB and tries to go belcher before they have EE.

[GreenOne]

EDIT: @GoldenCid: I believe he sides 2-3 in against CB and tries to go belcher before they have EE.

Exactly, sry if I was unclear.
Reasoning is, instead of always fightning counterbalance with Duress and Pyroblast, I just go for ETW way before counterbalance goes online and now they're stuck with a useless hand, unless they have EE/E.truth or Deed.

That's often because decks playing CB have not many creatures, usually they got only spot removal and (unless it's Dreadstill) are not playing Stifle.

[Bryant Cook]

Guess its Mealstrom Pulse now or?

btw: does the additional land help much more than a cabal ritual? i never had problems with cabal yet :/

It would be if I owned any. However, I don’t. I think the difference is marginal.

Like I said, I’d rather not take two damage and dig a few cards deeper. More than likely you’ll hit a Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, or Lion’s Eye Diamond. Much more valuable cards while comboing.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast

While Xantid Swarm is good in the combo mirror (which doesn’t happen often), wouldn’t you rather have a good anti-blue card that can deal with counterbalance (Pyroblast?)? I’m interested in your results with 3 sprees if you continue to play them; I just found it too hard with 3 Sea to replicate some times.

As for Empty the Warrens, I understand what you’re trying to do, it seems solid enough. I’ll try a 2nd ETW in the Vindicate slot (I rarely use vindicate).

[Piceli89]

I have to agree with Jeff about the fact that 7 MD protections +1 Chain is perhaps slightly too much, so far i always performed with the 4 chants +2 duress +1 chain configuration and it was amazing. And i don't think the missing duress would hurt too much, especially now that the deck is given even more fleibility by the use of more mystical tutors to grab what we need. Perhaps, that duress could become a Cabal Ritual. I mean, as a singleton it is not that sucky, after all it may net you 3 black manas at full power, which makes it a 2 card combo with Ad Nauseam. I'll give a try to the singleton ab Ritual ( i used to play 2 and felt comfortable with it, but maybe it can be only 1 and work still well) and i'll make you know.

[Bryant Cook]

I have to agree with Jeff about the fact that 7 MD protections +1 Chain is perhaps slightly too much, so far i always performed with the 4 chants +2 duress +1 chain configuration and it was amazing. And i don't think the missing duress would hurt too much, especially now that the deck is given even more fleibility by the use of more mystical tutors to grab what we need. Perhaps, that duress could become a Cabal Ritual. I mean, as a singleton it is not that sucky, after all it may net you 3 black manas at full power, which makes it a 2 card combo with Ad Nauseam. I'll give a try to the singleton ab Ritual ( i used to play 2 and felt comfortable with it, but maybe it can be only 1 and work still well) and i'll make you know.

You realize the difference between 1 card in a deck is in the decimals right? The difference between 2 and 3 Duress is almost unnoticeable. I disagree that 3 Duress may be "slightly too much". I'm interested in how often you draw that singleton cabal instead of a duress and how it plays out. I guarantee versus the match-ups that are tough, Duress is going to be more useful.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

You realize the difference between 1 card in a deck is in the decimals right? The difference between 2 and 3 Duress is almost unnoticeable. I disagree that 3 Duress may be "slightly too much". I'm interested in how often you draw that singleton cabal instead of a duress and how it plays out. I guarantee versus the match-ups that are tough, Duress is going to be more useful.

I agree whole heartedly that vs thresh and CB decks, duress is an all star. What im saying is that by dropping accel for more protection, slower tutors and more land, is it reducing our speed to the point where non-blue decks can become a threat again? If not then its all good but if so that has to be taken into account. Anyway, I'll do some testing tonight with my new list and see how it plays out.

[Piceli89]

So, if we follow your reasoning, we can say that the difference between 3 chrome moxes and 4 is "almost unnoticeable". But i can ensure you that drawing 2 moxes in an initial hand is total shit, is almost like playing with 5 cards. And since this really hurts our capacity to go off as fast as possible, i'm thinking that perhaps, the number of moxes could be cut to 3. You can use the argument "but it's critical after AN" , but if you try to goldfish the deck after Nauseam, you'll realize that it cab go off even starting from a singleton lotus petal, and still, the % of a Mox popping up of the top isn't that low. But mox is as good after An as it's really a shit pre-it when it comes up to 2-ofs and stucks your hand with 2 useless cards. Ok, we can play the mox without imprinting to get +1 storm if we're going etw , but i'd really prefer having something good.

[GreenOne]

that duress could become a Cabal Ritual. I mean, as a singleton it is not that sucky, after all it may net you 3 black manas at full power, which makes it a 2 card combo with Ad Nauseam. I'll give a try to the singleton ab Ritual ( i used to play 2 and felt comfortable with it, but maybe it can be only 1 and work still well) and i'll make you know.

I was one of the people advocating a singleton or a 2of of cabal ritual in the deck. However, once I got it substituted for something else it became clear that it was suboptimal:
- you almost never get threshold to take full benefit of the card, like ANT. We have no fetches, and are faster than ANT.
- It's not a 2 card combo with AN, cause once you reach threshold you're probably too low on life to take advantage of Ad Nauseam
- You also don't have threshold after a resolved Diminishing Returns
- Spell snare > Cabal Ritual
- 2cc is bad as an initial mana cost for a ritual effect. Sometimes you're on 2 mana and you can't cast Chant or can't have the single red mana for B.Wish.
Daze often becomes a factor.

I don't mind if you wanna play the 4th ponder, the 3rd duress, the 4th IT, another mystical or even a land or tinder wall. Just don't play Cabal Ritual. Test another card in its place and you'll see.

[evilchen]

I was one of the people advocating a singleton or a 2of of cabal ritual in the deck. However, once I got it substituted for something else it became clear that it was suboptimal:
- you almost never get threshold to take full benefit of the card, like ANT. We have no fetches, and are faster than ANT.
- It's not a 2 card combo with AN, cause once you reach threshold you're probably too low on life to take advantage of Ad Nauseam
- You also don't have threshold after a resolved Diminishing Returns
- Spell snare > Cabal Ritual
- 2cc is bad as an initial mana cost for a ritual effect. Sometimes you're on 2 mana and you can't cast Chant or can't have the single red mana for B.Wish.
Daze often becomes a factor.

I don't mind if you wanna play the 4th ponder, the 3rd duress, the 4th IT, another mystical or even a land or tinder wall. Just don't play Cabal Ritual. Test another card in its place and you'll see.

agreed 100%! i think its time to kick them out of my maindeck too...

[Piceli89]

Ok, i can get the points of not running Cabal, despites after AN (and sometime even before , even if situationally) it seemed to be a bomb. But what about the 3 or 4 Moxes issue, which i have talked about above? Has anyone met a situation where he was stuck with 2 useless moxes in hands , and have wished ( and did) a cut to 3 ? If yes, how it was?

[evilchen]

Its not like you can't do nothing if your opening hand has 2 Chrome Mox but
..
i stucked several times with 2 Mox in my opening hand and could not use the second one after all... and after that i tried 3 Chrome Moxes and iam still happy with only 3 of them yet!

[GreenOne]

Its not like you can't do nothing if your opening hand has 2 Chrome Mox but
..
i stucked several times with 2 Mox in my opening hand and could not use the second one after all... and after that i tried 3 Chrome Moxes and iam still happy with only 3 of them yet!

Interesting. Did you play the 11th land or something?

[Bryant Cook]

So, if we follow your reasoning, we can say that the difference between 3 chrome moxes and 4 is "almost unnoticeable". But i can ensure you that drawing 2 moxes in an initial hand is total shit, is almost like playing with 5 cards. And since this really hurts our capacity to go off as fast as possible, i'm thinking that perhaps, the number of moxes could be cut to 3. You can use the argument "but it's critical after AN" , but if you try to goldfish the deck after Nauseam, you'll realize that it cab go off even starting from a singleton lotus petal, and still, the % of a Mox popping up of the top isn't that low. But mox is as good after An as it's really a shit pre-it when it comes up to 2-ofs and stucks your hand with 2 useless cards. Ok, we can play the mox without imprinting to get +1 storm if we're going etw , but i'd really prefer having something good.

So you're telling me you've never needed more initial mana sources after Nauseam? I know I have, I believe that Chrome Mox #4 is now the weakest card in the deck. However, I feel it's a necessary evil. Yes, drawing two opening hand sucks sometimes. Make use of it, imprint that singleton Rite of Flame. It's a permanent mana source for later. That or Brainstorm one back.

[evilchen]

Interesting. Did you play the 11th land or something?

4th ponder :) but i guess iam going back to 4 Chrome cutting out my last Cabal Ritual now!