If the deck you are playing is fast like zoo, combo, burn, so on, I would just advise drawing a card each turn and letting jace die. Any other deck going 3 for their 1 is really good and can easily bury them in CA to the point of no return.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
-Unless you know you have an advantage and you are just looking to end said game. Then obviously its a win condition and you can procede to add two counters.
contradictions ftw!
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Last edited by klaus; 05-25-2009 at 02:08 PM.
In a way, kinda. By the time you use DoJ for that purpose, you can basically afford to protect your DoJ because chances are, you're cycling DoJ for a massive amount. With EE, you tend to use it around midgame when you have about 5-6 lands out.
contradictions ftw!
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ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
But you will still have to tap yourself out or at least use plenty of mana to cycle for a decent amount of tokens.
If you are arguing that it is easier to protect a (Finisher-sized) DoJ than an EE for 2-3 Counters, then you are wrong.
No fred, your wrong.
- Verbal Warning for Spam. Knock that shit off. - Bardo
Nice, could you maybe start giving reasons for your opinion?
During the times I played Decree, I often found myself cycling that early Decree away, just to get rid of it (=> early game).
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And I don't have the slightest clue what makes you think that EE is an early game card...
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I'm seconding Fredmaster here: the odds that EE gets stifled successfully are much lower - afterall, you need to use only 2 mana (sacking it the turn after), if you're afraid of Stifle and want to keep counter mana open.
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Edit: I'm aware how Decree works and that you can wait for the resolution before tapping out and stuff: countering that Stifle = -2 tokens though, plus the spell needs more mana to have an impact - I still don't have a clue why you don't find it just as straight forward...
The fact that you pre-set EE earlier in the game.
You can do that too. Good enough.I'm seconding Fredmaster here: the odds that EE gets stifled successfully are much lower - afterall, you need to use only 2 mana (sacking it the turn after), if you're afraid of Stifle and want to keep counter mana open.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Agh fuck it, i'll do it. First off i'm no longer responding to dumb questions. If you have questions read through thread, then ask or atleast PM me so I feel priviledged to get back to you whenever the hell I feel like it. And if you catch me in the forums posting when you know you asked a question and I haven't responded I can atleast say oops I forgot to check my messeges because my private box is soo tiny. Thanx mod's.
So without further ado getting back on topic
I am tired of explaning these facts over and over again.
*4 Spell snare is not only necessary but FANTSTIC in this current metagame
*Cunning wish is and has always been good for landstill
*Vendillion clique is AWESOME.
*You cannot run 8 manlands in landstill, its simply too many colorless sources.
*Elspeth(2 Main) is nuts, so is Jace(1 Main, in 4th brainstorm slot), as well as Ajani goldmane(2 Sideboard). These should be standards for all models.
Questions i'd like to be solved:
*How good is counterbalance against ANT in traditional landstill models?
*Is landstill WITHOUT vindicate or wish able to beat Zoo preboard? Whats the matchup analysis?
Last but not least!
*Is black "really" necessary if you run wish? Is red/Green any better?
These are the current questions on my mind and I really believe most people should be focusing on them, as they are really whats important currently.
Thanx, Citrus tends to defend me from time-time and I felt obliged to be wrong for his sake :), though you won't ever see me write that or hear it out of my mouth again, so savor it.I lol'd.
Just compare the distances between Northern Germany (us) --> Annecy & Northern Italy --> Annecy, and you'll know why that top16 looks like it does.
http://maps.google.de/maps?hl=de&q=a...-8&sa=N&tab=wl
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I guess we should move our oh so relevant pseudo-trashtalk to the realm of PMs
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I value your standing up for citrus and his flawed logic, though.
red text is reserved for moderator use so that we can yell at you when you get out of line---frogboy
Last edited by frogboy; 05-26-2009 at 01:13 AM.
There we go back on track. I'll get right to it after this weekends huge tournament.
Careful its sunny out there:
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
1. No. Counterbalance is great against ant if you can go turn 1 top, turn 2 balance. This deck cannot do that reliably and I therefore do not like it in the anti-combo board slot. I know it's not used that much here, but I'v found runed halo to always be the card I want against them. I bring in 3 halo and 4 blasts (-4 swords, -2 wrath, -1 vindicate) and it seems to be a strong package. If they can't target you with tendrils then they have to find their one piece of bounce or cast burning wish (blasts).
2. Not really. You can control them and slow the game way down but they topdeck so hard that you're just a sitting duck. They'll build up their hand over and over while dropping two or three creatures for you to handle while they burn your face. The only real way to win would be to pump out soldiers and eventually use elspeth's ultimate.
3. No. Extirpate is good but not always worth the extra duals. Green for grip would be quite strong as well, and you could play loam main. I only play black for vindicate now, and sometimes plague in the board but this happens less and less.
I agree with most of your points on landstill, but those vindillion clique slots are still widely up for debate. I've always found it to be weaker than counterspell as have others on this forum.
I have a question. Is CA just not as needed? I keep seeing lists cutting FoF and going down to 3 Standstill which really seems weird considering this deck used to be based on CA. Is it because the format has become so threat light?
It's good, but narrow: You won't really board it in against 95% of all non-combo.decs
Why are you interested in answering that question? Are you looking into building a non-Wish, non-Vindicate version. If so we should be judging the alternatives for those 2-4 MD slots first, I think.
That's one of those questions that need to be answered by listing the most efficient LS cards of each color. I think it comes down to whether you can find a really good replacement for Plague - I don't know any, though.
Then again I'm one of those vindicaters...(happy with 4 atm) - I won't consider cutting black very soon.
Yeah, that's like removing your Morphling from the game for your FoW just to get rid of it.
It's called pre-setting. It's a quasi-Chalice that really restricts the opponent's speed. Combined with Spell Snare, it's pretty beastly.
Okay... I think you're forgetting something rather important: Decree of Justice can be played as a sorcery to make Angels. Just making one Angel for 6 mana can be a serious threat. You don't always have to EoT Cycle (though it is preferable).
Agreed, Spell Snare rocks. I am hesitant to use 4 though.
Cunning Wish is good if your metagame is not full of aggro. Then its speed handicap can show.
Clique is a pretty interesting card. Great against combo and stops a Mongoose in a pinch.
I have never had the opportunity to play against ANT... =\
Zoo? You mean Vindicate as a way to remove Isochron Scepter? Why not stick to Snares (this matchup would call for 4 Snares) and EE? They have so many two-drops.
I don't think any splash is strictly necessary. But Extirpate is great when you do use black and Cunning Wish.
This is retarded on a couple of levels.
1. If I found myself playing morphling in modern legacy I would pray to baby jesus for a way to remove it from my hand because it is terrible.
2. Early in the game if you have the mana up it can be useful to cycle decree just to hit that next land drop. I've even by chance cycled into a blue card to pitch to force, making two dudes in the process. Decree is a late game card, but it's safe to run two or even three for the exact reason of cycling for a dude or two and drawing a card.
Thank you for your time.
Originally Posted by klaus
During the times I played Decree, I often found myself cycling that early Decree away, just to get rid of it (=> early game).
Yeah, that's like removing your Morphling from the game for your FoW just to get rid of it.He's not saying we should play Morphling, he's saying cycling away Decree "just to get rid of it" is throwing away a win-condition. There are times where cycling it to dig for another land, spell, or to chump block are necessary, but cycling it just to draw a card isn't very good.This is retarded on a couple of levels.
1. If I found myself playing morphling in modern legacy I would pray to baby jesus for a way to remove it from my hand because it is terrible.
2. Early in the game if you have the mana up it can be useful to cycle decree just to hit that next land drop. I've even by chance cycled into a blue card to pitch to force, making two dudes in the process. Decree is a late game card, but it's safe to run two or even three for the exact reason of cycling for a dude or two and drawing a card.
Thank you for your time.
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"Swords?"
"It still has pro white."
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1. I was using the Morphling as an example of a card that is perhaps going to be important later on (in OTHER decks) and using it as FoW fodder. I am not actually saying we should stick Morphlings into Landstill decks. -_-"
2. Obviously dire actions are needed during dire times, such as to hit your fourth land to wipe the field of Goblins or to get that Brainstorm to use your FoW to stop a vital combo piece, but he didn't say that. He said he would do it JUST TO GET RID OF IT, meaning he is treating it as dead weight in his hand that should be unloaded immediately.
Perhaps it is not your experience in MtG that is the problem here, but your reading comprehension.
See? Shawn understood my comment. I am saying we should be trying to use cards as best we can at the best time and that klaus does not sound like he's doing that. I personally hold my Decrees until I can find a use for them, even if it's to make 1-3 tokens and dig for permission or removal, but surely I don't say: "Oh whew. Three mana, now I can cycle this stupid Decree in my hand."
I feel like those RedGreen Decks are getting more and more incredible cards and it getīs harder and harder to fight them back. Countermagic isnīt as good as it was since Shusher and Hellspark are beeing maindecked and Removal canīt prevent beeing hit by some prices. In my opinion there has to be at least 5 Slots in the SB for that matchup. Iīve always been fine with 2 Ajani and 3-4 Kitchen Finks.
Finks seems illogical because it takes away slots from said ant matchup.
Path to exile plus wish for pulse seems good for the board.
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