You're spot on. The engine is good in that it gives stability and inevitability to the deck, but it is indeed a bit slow. I finished 4th at a tournament yesterday, losing only to goblins (despite playing jitte MD and cataclysm SB). But there's no reason not to play grunt, even if this means cutting stonecloaker or flickerwisp. MD GY-hate (goyf is still very prevalent) is invaluable, and it interacts quite nicely with the rebel engine (as an alternative to paying 3 to activate Lin's 2nd ability). I'll try fitting canonist back in, this might help the speed issue.Originally Posted by hjalte
It actually improves the Uwgb landstill and Ugb(w) MUs, because multiple KotHN > deed/EE. Sligh (and zoo to a lesser extent) is a very good MU, notably thanks to the CoK soft-lock. Also, multiple KotHN > pyroclasm. I agree that fetching CoK with Lin is too slow to stop ichorid or storm combo on its own, but if you have some additional hate to slow them down it will help you quite a bit (not least because it's unexpected).
It gives inevitability and provides uncounterable, hard-to-deal-with threats. It performs a very different function to that of Mangara, comparing the 2 doesn't make sense. Also, it provides the card-advantage that the deck desperately needs.
Karakas protects Lin. Grunt puts the rebels back in your library for free. KotHN benefits from the mana-denial plan.
That's a very general statement. Especially since quite a few decks have a very good (ie better than D&T) late-game plan. I'd also like to point out that some of the cards you mention here (EE, counter-top) are as much of a problem in mid/late-game as early on.
EDIT : Forgot to mention that the CoK soft-lock saved my ass a couple of times against Progenitus. If you don't play runed halo (most people don't), it's basically the only real answer you have to it (you'll have to sword one of your own creature if you play Lin the turn after Progenitus CIP).
Thanks for explaining, that helped alot.It actually improves the Uwgb landstill and Ugb(w) MUs, because multiple KotHN > deed/EE. Sligh (and zoo to a lesser extent) is a very good MU, notably thanks to the CoK soft-lock. Also, multiple KotHN > pyroclasm. I agree that fetching CoK with Lin is too slow to stop ichorid or storm combo on its own, but if you have some additional hate to slow them down it will help you quite a bit (not least because it's unexpected
Karakas protects Lin. Grunt puts the rebels back in your library for free. KotHN benefits from the mana-denial plan.
I meant not that they do similar things. They have same weaknesses: 3-cost (already crowded slot), need time to work, don't do a shit the turn they come into play, need more investments to work, die to most popular cheap removal. Wich means they both are good when the game goes normal. And they both are slow when something goes wrong.
That's good point 'cause uberworm sneaks somewhere in my meta!
Well, all in all, it seems like mostly metagame/personal taste choice. I prefer to run more agressive version and I like my Grunts and Canonists.
But I'll try rebels later when I'll became more experienced with the deck. Adding another engine is not a way to learn deck's basics.
I also disappointed no one commented my small tech, Elvish Hexhunter. Is he so bad that it's not worth forum space?
My (short) testing says he's not.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Hey, Firemind. The Hexhunter is fine imo. I think Maelig's entire direction is fine as well. Maelig has essentially repositioned the deck into a role with significant control potential. And that has its advantages.
I do think it is a different deck though. The disruption offered by Rebels is not of the same level the rest of the deck is, so you are making a trade off. I don't know if it is worth it or not.
Hexhunter is your tech and that is certainly the way we have all been doing it. The deck is highly customizeable. If there is a need to take down Counterbalance right in the main, it is a fine addition imo. For additional 1-drops, though I like Burrenton Forge Tender.
I love it when Tacosnape reads me Seuss. It's the sodomy I don't like.
You are certainly one of the most sporting gentlemen I've met - telling me how to board best to beat one of your pet decks! Come to think of it I haven't sat down opposite your burn deck for a while, wanna bring it along this week and we can have a few matches?
I gotta give You a fair chance Dave. Consider it done.
Team Face Palm
He's not only for Counterbalance. Landstill and Survival are more popular in my meta than CB. Oh, and Enchantress hates them.
I really enjoyed playing 10 1-drops and I don't want go back to 7.
The problem is my random metagame - you never know what decks you will fight. Sometimes Hexhunter was great, sometimes he was just 1/1 before I side him out.
Hexhunter is here to complement O-ring 'cause 3 MD art-ench hate is not enough and well-timed Flickerwisp already solves some problems with artifacts (EE, Chalice, Ravager, Chrome Mox, resetting Vial and Smokestack).
The main purpouse for theese 3 1-cc slots is to feel some early-game holes.
I have Isamaru to block Lackey/bite face and Vial to build my game. So I need something to disrupt opponent's game.
Icatian Javeliners pretends that slot 'cause it's no good to spend Swords on Birds/Llanowar/Hierarch and additional help against Bob will be great too. They can also suicide to fuck up Bridges from Below (as I said, you never know what will you meet in my meta) and they have synergy with Cloaker/Flickerwisp.
I dig the thread deeper and found out some earlier lists used Mana Tithe. I'll try theese to, but I'm not very positive on leaving open mana during first turns (if I don't need to play around daze). On the other side, I have mana-denial plan, so Mana Tithe is not useless in midgame...
I finaly found some good Storm players in MWS last night and I'm very pleased with Children. I don't want Chant anymore, the reasons are:
Children can be vialed, Chant can't.
Children do it NOW, Chant needs open mana.
Children are small pressure and can carry Jitte.
Finnaly, Children can't be Duressed.
Children are like Gaddock Teeg against Storm Combo - they shut off combo's win condition buying you 1-2 turns to bring more hate, but they costand that's totally awesome.
Edit: I totally overlooked how awesome is Knight of the Holy Nimbus + Jitte!
Last edited by eq.firemind; 06-03-2009 at 04:10 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Apart from the CoK soft-lock (which is only used in particular situations), the rebel engine is really more of a midrange aggro than a control strategy. That being said, it does change the deck quite a bit and makes some MUs better and others a bit worse (goblins for eg). I do think it's worth it overall.
Hexhunter is an interesting option but I tend to be suspicious of cards with a conditional effect in the MD. D&T has evolved in the opposite direction over the past months, notably by removing true believer and SotPC from the main. Also, I'm not sure CB, standstill or survival are the main problems of the deck right now (although it can't hurt to have some additional hate). And it's not an answer to the most annoying enchantments for this deck, namely deed and humility. That being said, I agree with you that the deck is a bit "heavy" atm and it's certainly nice to have another 1-drop. Personally I prefer wayfarer, but I admit he's only been decent and rarely great.
CoK is NOT a good replacement for chant. It's just isn't. It might surprise an over-confident storm player with vial @ 1, but once he knows the trick there's little chance it will be of any use again on its own. It's really the same reason why true believer and runed halo are bad against combo : it only stops their win-con, not the engine itself. They can easily find an answer to it before proceeding to kill you. Your comparison with teeg isn't appropriate : the main use of teeg is not to stop tendrils, but AdN and ill-gotten gains (ie their engine). Also, it's good to diversify the hate. If you play CoK and canonist, ANT can just fetch massacre and proceed to win, while if you play canonist and chant he will need to have an answer to each of those.I finaly found some good Storm players in MWS last night and I'm very pleased with Children. I don't want Chant anymore, the reasons are:
Children can be vialed, Chant can't.
Children do it NOW, Chant needs open mana.
Children are small pressure and can carry Jitte.
Finnaly, Children can't be Duressed.
Children are like Gaddock Teeg against Storm Combo - they shut off combo's win condition buying you 1-2 turns to bring more hate, but they cost
So whats the general list at the moment? I really liked the list Finn posted a few pages ago with 4 canonists maindeck. But i really like the rebel engine too. My meta consists out of merfolk/zoo/some goblins and elves/few landstill/few combo. If someone gives me a good list that uses the rebel engine, i can compare it with the list Finn posted too see what cards u drop if u go for the rebel engine.
THanks,
Maarten
Yeah, agree here. Outside Isamaru, they all more or less conditional...
Well, ANT has Duress/Pact of Negation/their Chant to fight our Chant...
True Believer and Halo are crap 'cause they cost
But I get your advice and will test Chant and Kids more to figure out witch is the best for my deck/metagame.
And I want to see your Rebel DnT list too!
I played with StaX player yesterday, (we played 6 2/3 sb games, Hexhunter was not useless killing his Prisons and Suppression Fields, 3:3 frendship wins), I asked about rebels and he said he HATES Lin Sivvi
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Is the list I have been testing recently.Code:Lands: 4 Wasteland 3 Rishadan Port 2 Flagstones of Trokair 4 Karakas 9 Plains Guys 4 Flickerwisp 3 Stonecloaker 4 Serra Avenger 2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda 3 Mangara of Corondor 3 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero 4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus 1 Mirror Entity Stuff 3 Oblivion Ring 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Umezawa's Jitte 4 AEther Vial
It performs OK, but feels a bit slow. You might want to fit in a single Children of Korlis, as the Soft-Lock is pretty good. Also I think it would be good with some Jötun Grunts, but I haven't had time to test a list with them.
Finns most recent list is at the opening post. It performs very well in a varied meta (I split the finals in a small tournament with about 20 people with that exact list).
What I do recommend, if you see a lot of tribal decks, is to play with cataclysm maindeck. That spell really wrecks them. I haven't tested the elf matchup with canonist, but I believe that it will slow them down enough, so you can handle them, and so you don't need cataclysm.
My best advice would be to play a couple of games to get a grip of the deck. And then try out a list with rebels, and see how that works out. I think it is, mostly, a matter of taste, what you prefer to play with.
About the inclusion of Icatian Javelineers: I really like the idea a lot. Although I think it will be very hard to fit it in a deck with the rebel engine.
I especially like how it handles noble hierarch. I have been playing a lot of countertop decks with him on MWS latelay, and I have oftentimes used a swords on them, to slow them down further.
One more 1-drop that I'll test: Deftblade Elite.
Reasons:
1) Kills manadudes and Confidant to complement manadenial plan and save Swords for fat targets.
2) Blocks all day long.
3) Bash into lonely big blocker, pay
4) Becomes silly when equipped with charged Jitte.
Too bad the deck can't pump it's guys outside Jitte. Somehow pumped Deftblade seems to be awesome.
I want to try 2-3 Cataclysm instead 2 Tivadar and 1 other card in sideboar (+ 2-3 Flagsones main). I found out Burrentons are already very good against goblins and Cataclysm is usefull here too, but it also wrecks Enchantress and Landstill (if you resolve it, Chant or Wayfarer => Boseiju can be helpfull here)
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I love deftblade elite, i play 4 of them in my soldier deck, where it performs great (field marshall for first strike and pumping etc) and its creates a blocker for my catapult squad.
but, i do not think it add's anything to D&T. it barely does any damage, it costs 2 mana to prevent damage (not trample). and its provoke ability isnt that special in this deck either. Dont get me wrong, i love him, but i think d&t already has trouble cutting disruptive creatures
I actually have 3 free slots and I want something that costs 1 (in addition to 4 Vial and 3 Isamaru) 'cause I feel general lists (like the one on page 1) are a little slow for me. Just searching for possibilities...
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
true, the list lacks explosive speed, but i do not think deftblade elite would solve that. And this is not really a aggro deck, it wins on creatures that also play a control/disruptive roll, buying you time.
So what is the list you play with then?
and i do not think hexhunter would be a great choise, i am testing a 4th ring now for extra removal. And hexhunter is not a great card when the opponent does not play any exciting enchantments.
(and btw, the hexhunter does not hurt enchantress that much, i also play enchantress, and that deck can survive multiple deeds)
As you can see, the list is pretty standart 'cause I'm new to the deck and need to learn alot how to play it. I just cut 1 Port, 1 Flickerwisp and 1 Canonist from 1st post' list and changed side to what I own/like.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Do not cut the flickerwisp, like finn, im in love with this creature. It does so much, and in the worst possible situation, its a 3/1 flyer that untaps a land.
play 4 of those! (you just have to see it in action to see how good it is)
i play 4 canonist now, couse i want my deck to have a maindeck answer to combo, and its also decent against alot of other decks. And im going to look how good a 4th ring is (since it does remove everything)
I have been trying a more standard list with icatian javelineers, and aven mindcensor. I have never been unhappy to see javelineers. He kills bob, elves, hierarch. Very nice. He's also pretty cool with flickerwisp and stonecloaker. And when he has pinget, he can always carry a jitte, if you need to get some initial counters on it, though that's hardly a reason to run him...
Aven mindcensor on the other hand, never really felt good. It always felt to late when it hits the board, to effect fetchlands, which was my main reason to include them, to complement my land destruction/denial plan. I would much rather play the last port, as it actually do something, and then play real threats (aka. Grunt). It was VERY nice against survival though, but that's pretty obvious.
About 3 or 4 flickerwisp. I'm not sure. Right now I'm playing 3, and I'm not missing the fourth. They're best when you have vial, and not quite as awesome when you don't, and as I have said earlier, that's not something we can count on, when we can't search for vial, and don't draw any cards. So I think it's perfectly fine to run only 3 wisps, but i don't think you should ever run less than 3 stonecloaker, as they have flash, and don't need vial to do our awesome battletricks.
EDIT:
eq.firemind, that's almost the list I've been testing with -3 grunt +3 mindcensor, and the 3 free slots is javelineers. I really think it's pretty optimal. Also, I have -1 plains, +1 flagstones of trokair. The flagstones is better than a normal plains in most cases, especially with my cataclysm in the sideboard. And I really think you should consider cataclysm in the side. It's great against tribal and control.
Last edited by hjalte; 06-04-2009 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Just saw eq.firemind's list, and wanted to comment (damn beer, don't cloud my mind)
How are the Zoo/merfolk matchups for this deck?? Those are two heavy played decks in my meta and im thinking to build this deck.
thanks
Just wondering, I'm new to this deck, but I had heard some murmurs about trying Death and Taxes with a Green splash...
Have people abandoned this idea?
It seems like if TEPS/ ANT are difficult matches, Gaddock Teeg could help a lot, since it is a must-answer in order for them to be able to win. On top of that, Qasali Pridemage seems like a shoe-in for the sideboard, since people have been debating Elvish Hexhunter and Pridemage is pretty nearly strictly-better.
Also, if you wanted to get really wacky with Karakas (which is secretly the main thing I want to do in playing this deck), you could try stuff like Saffi Eriksdotter or Reki, History of Kamigawa... Probably neither of these are actually optimal, but damn, I really want Reki to be good... The idea of using Karakas + Isamaru as a draw engine is just about the most adorable thing I could think of... Lol.
I understand all the conventional arguments against splashing a color, especially in a deck such as this that tends to run a high number of non-basics (Karakas, Port, Factory, Wasteland, Flagstones)... However, it seems that the meta is getting more friendly to splashing in mono-color decks... For example I've had some success so far testing my Merfolk deck with a White splash.
It seems to me that a Green splash has to be at least as good as a Lin Sivvi list, but as I said I'm new to the deck so I don't want to be too presumptuous just yet in touting my ideas... I'm just interested what people think.
Are there any green cards that would be worthwhile to use in the maindeck? (I'm really hoping the answer isn't "Tarmogoyf"...)
SIDEBAR: Could someone show me what a list that runs Weathered Wayfarer looks like, and maybe give me a rundown on how it affects the deck's match-ups as compared to the standard version? Wayfarer is one of my personal pet-favorite-cards, so I'd be interested in seeing a list.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
The matches are hard, but not un-winable. With canonist main and 4 chants coming from the side its quite do-ableAbout the green splash: i believe someone tested that before a few pages ago. Check that out
Maarten
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