A smaller issue, but people can no longer Wish back RFG cards from Chrome Mox or more importantly, Diminishing Returns. Small quibble, but something that people should remember.Originally Posted by SuperBean
Mystical Tutor wasn't good enough before Ad Nauseam + Lion's Eye Diamond, so I don't see how it can be good enough now. The sky definitely isn't falling, but it's certainly been lowered now that we can't set up for the T2 win via top deck tutors and cantrips. We can redesign, but losing 1 turn is a big deal in a combo deck that's crushed by Counterbalance, especially in a Storm deck that emphasizes winning before the bad shit happens.
I'm looking at the situation right now. This is where my Mystical tutor slots are...
Mystical = 4th Infernal
Which is stronger? I'm betting Mystical. There's a few reasons, Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is amazing. I love Wishing for Ad Nauseam. Mystical can grab Chain of Vapor, an amazing addition to the maindeck since Ad Nauseam. Mystical can also grab protection without needing a copy of it. However, the drawbacks of Mystical are that its slow and the card doesn't go to your hand. The main argument right here is how strong Infernal as a wish target.
Mystical = Cabal Ritual
Cabal Ritual is weak and is really only good after Nauseam, by then you have Dark Rituals and Rite of Flame. I'd rather not take an addition 2 damage that I don't need
Mystical = Ill-Gotten Gains
This is where the 60th slot is...if I was to cut a Mystical I'd probably be forced to add Ill-Gotten Gains back to the maindeck. I'm already up to 4 Ponder and 3 Duress. It could be a 4th Duress, but turning Wish into protection is more valuable in my eyes. I don't want to add gains back in...reasons are stated above...
What would you like to add?
I think the only worth inclusion you could make is putting IGG back again in the deck. Wishing for it is very mana intensive, and you can't do it really often. Never, to be honest, because you'd need such a quantity of accels and LED to make it good that you'd probably be light on protections, or you'd just need to have a very good ( if not perfect) hand. And it's just a good ( not great, but still valid ) engine which suits perfectly for certain decks. I'd never cut it from MD, because it's a safe win whereas there are times when you lose from AN starting at 20 just because of bad luck. Keeping diversified Engine storms is a must for this deck, it's the feature that makes it very good. The fact that you randomly flipped it in a tourney 2 times doesn't make it bad, it only makes you understand that AN is sometimes shit, because it relies on a very massive dose of luck, sometimes. So let's just keep safe ways to win, no?
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I rarely cast IGG. It's not worth taking the 4 damage maindeck. I still have access to the card, you're being a bit conservative. Just try the deck out without Igg, you'll realize you don't miss it.
Yeah, IGG in the main is still unvaluable. It's the way you can win against aggro if you got a slow hand and AN become worse. It's also a sure win when an Orim Chant isn't countered. It's also quite good against Ichorid and discard decks, and now that the deck lost the Mystical+LED trick that was good against them, IGG needs to be in the main. No questions.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Just tried your version, and I swear i would have given my life away in several situations to have IGG in the deck.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I know I won't be adding the IGG back into the maindeck, until at least until these new rules are in effect. Maybe then.
It's better perhaps to get confidence with new rules by now, since they'll change how we perform this deck a bit.
As you want, in any case.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Additional Ad Nauseams and Tinder Walls are personal favorites (Ad Nauseam less so now that you can't luck sack Cantrip + LED into it), but I think just adding redundancy to threats, disruption and acceleration can be just as good as running Mystical Tutor. IT and Duress in the SB is fine, but that doesn't mean we can't run a 3rd Ad Nauseam, a Silence or a Tinder Wall MD instead of moving IT and Duress back into the MD automatically. Also, 4th Ponder over Chain of Vapor is a fairly automatic decision.
I agree Cabal Ritual is terrible, but a singleton Tinder Wall is actually really strong. 1xing or 2xing that card pretty much takes away your issues with it, and extra 1cc acceleration and extra mana production are damn useful.
Please no. The Tinder Wall discussion has been had several pages ago. I know its your personal "tech" or whatever, but there is no need to preach it every other page.
Look, no one ever bothered to actually test Tinder Wall or give a serious argument for why Tinder Wall is bad (Oh, it's green in a 5c deck and it can be removed against decks that board out their removal ...), the fact of the matter is TES is overly reliant on Mystical Tutor for acceleration and is short on "juice" compared to the old Simian Spirit Guide versions. Bryant just cut IGG after he preached how necessary IGG was MD, over time people come to the realization there's more than just one way to play TES and cards need to be constantly tested and re-tested for archetype optimization.
Actually, I think I'll be adding Igg back after the rules change over the 3rd Mystical. Giving me 2 Mystical, 4 Ponder, 1 IGG. Without the upkeep trick, Ad Nauseam is weak against the aggro decks. I found myself in bad situations against Goblins casting Nauseam at 11 life.
I know I beat Tinder Wall like a dead horse, but 0/3 blocker that can trade with their attacker is pretty damn solid vs the life loss issue.
That said, going back to IGG may well be warranted, where do you see TES with Silence now that we can reliably double Chant/Silence to enable IGG thru' FoW?
As an aside, do you feel your version of TES is really acceleration light? With out Mystical turning LED into a Lotus, I find myself tutoring for Dark Ritual way more than I want to.
I don't feel like Tinderwall has a home in the deck right now. Even with Mystical Tutor being weak, it's ability to become protection/acceleration/storm engines is still stronger than +1 mana.
I've yet to test Silence, I imagine it will be like when we all played Abeyance. As of right now my plan is to play 3 Chant/1 Silence. I'd like to make it 3 Chant/ 2 Silence. But the problem is where do we cut cards? Do we go back to three ponder? Do we go back down to two Duress and weaken our Counterbalance match-up? Slots are tight right now.
I don't feel that it's light compared to other storm decks in comparison. However, it's light compared to past lists running SSG and Cabal Ritual. But I feel that there's more stability while keeping the same speed.
"Tinder Wall, go" is a strong mana fixing/mana generating play for me, even with the risk of Swords to Plowshares, and it's a tempo stealer vs aggro. It's definitely more than just +1 mana, and redundant acceleration has been really important for me lately in live play. That said, I understand if you run another accelerant, threat, protection, tutor or cantrip in that slot, but that said I think you really underestimate how good it can be.
I'm not just thinking about splitting Orim's Chant and Silence or adding another "Orim's Chant," but 8xing the full set of Orim's Chant and Silence just for enough W cards to effectively imprint for W and support casting a protection spell off of it. Maybe Duress is necessary vs Counterbalance, but there's definitely some structural consideration to take into account with having the full 8 white cards.
I definitely feel like something needs to be changed in TES right now, with out the bustedness of Mystical + LED I just don't feel like I'm fast enough to duck Counterbalance.
Are you suggesting 11 MD protection spells? I don't know what to say here, with that much white I may consider a Tundra over a 4th Mox. But it seems awful versus everything not blue.
11 protections MD is a suicide. The current configuration of spells works greatly , so far. 4 orim's chant is just enough; not to mention that, if you'd add a tundra, this deck would have serious color issues. the white must be represented only by orim's chant, that's enough.
As long as Counterbalance exists in Legacy, Duress must stay in the maindeck.
Ah, i see that you gave up the 3th mystical to reintroduce IGG. Well done sir, there 'll be times when you'll notice that IGG is a must for this deck.
Also, 4 ponders should provide the maximum of consistency, even losing a bit of speed. But, in any case, this is not the deck that used to perform a turn1 kill so often; the meta changed since the ANless version, slowing itself, and this allows more consistent and solid kill-hands.
We'll see if on June the 20th, this will be revolutioned one more time.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
No, I meant 4xOrim's Chant and 4xSilence as the disruption package.
So...you're for scooping to counterbalance all together?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
