[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[Kadaj]

@ Kadaj

We've been over this before. Obviously my post wasn't meant for you. Argue against Brainstorm/Disk/non-permanent MUC builds until you are blue in the face. I'm a fairly competent Goblins and Thresh player and I've simply had different testing results. If your build was really that optimal, I'd hope to have seen more results for it. Your suggestions are tailored for the DtB gauntlet usually (and I appreciate that), but I think that is no longer an acceptable strategy for this deck. Again, you need to take seriously that MUC may just be a deck which only temporarily becomes viable, and is very metagame dependant (like so many other Established decks). Perhaps the deck should just stick to its strong suit, and actually be chosen when its a reasonable deck. This is a deck which targets a specific metagame, and it likely has lost its ability to have generic viability.

As for the sample size of Brainstorm, don't act like it just randomly places 'occasionally' (as you put it). It is one of the most successful cards in MUC. As the 4th most played card in those 70+ lists, from a set of lists which show historical viability of the card given a long-term evolution of the general Legacy metagame, I think you've exaggerated your argument against Brainstorm. Even if you don't think Brainstorm is optimal (by some degree), you have very little evidence to show its suboptimal by any serious margin.

If this were a combo deck, then I could more readily accept your rhetoric. Control decks are generally a bit more malleable though, and you've the wrong attitude about the nature of a role which must attempt to co-evolve with the metagame. While MUC has fairly limited options for modification (as far as control decks go), it does have some wiggle room. That freedom can be leveraged.

I'll certainly admit that deckcheck is not the only place we should consider. I think it is a good indicator of whether or not a deck is crystallized though. If you were so obviously right about MUC (which your sarcastic tone implies you think you are), I'd hope that the deck would have evolved to be your list. As it stands, I think deckcheck is a testament to the fact that you aren't obviously right. Your build perhaps might edge out other options, but not by a large and obvious margin. Clearly, there are alternatives that are tournament worthy and there are specific metagames where the alternatives are better than your list.

The reason Powder Keg is more of a tempo card than an all out board sweeper is because it is restricted in targets (not hitting enchantments or high CC cards can be a problem) and because it isn't common to sweep away multiple permanents with it (excepting tokens). Powder Keg doesn't answer high CC targets, and you might not have the time to ramp up a Powder Keg before you would die to a high cc win con. While a true board sweeper can easily generate board card advantage, Powder Keg does not do so reliably. Powder keg is a tempo-based answer, much closer to Force Spike and Echoing Truth than to a card like Disk. Sure, Keg "taps" and "destroys" like Disk, but the reasons you tap it and the times at which you do so match more closely with the other tempo options of MUC. Keg can obviously be stronger than Force Spike/Echoing Truth in a vacuum, as it is better in the late game (although even Force Spike and Echoing Truth can be used late game), but that doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling those tempo roles.

@4eak:

I suppose the bottom line for me is that I've been completely unable to replicate your success against aggro with the draw/go builds. To each his own, in the end. I've had some decent success with my own build, top 16 twice at The Mana Leak and I really don't play that much in terms of major tournaments otherwise, and while yes I have seen plenty of other MUC builds, many that include Brainstorm, Top 8 that doesn't make them the best build. Something being popular does not make it correct, and while the argument can be made that there's a reason why the aforementioned builds are more popular, I'm inclined to believe its more related to a lack of exposure than anything else. Aside from in this thread, I doubt the Brainstormless build of MUC garners much discussion elsewhere, quite possibly because it does look quite unorthodox at first glance.

And yes, it is true that MUC hasn't crystalized into a sort of accepted framework yet, despite my firm belief that it should've done so a long time ago. It's simply my experience that the so-called permenant MUC builds have a higher EV than draw/go in larger tournaments (i.e. with a more varied expected field in terms of potential archtypes).

Given the way you described Powder Keg, yes it is a tempo generator in that sense. But, unlike many of the other tempo generating options that have been pitched around this thread, Powder Keg actually removes threats. You can Echoing Truth something to gain tempo, but if its really a big enough threat (and most of the threats of that nature in Legacy are cheap enough that they will often appear in the early game) it will just come down the following turn and you'll once again have to either counter it or bounce it again. Keg, on the other hand, removes the offending card outright. This can be extremely important against stuff like a Nimble Mongoose (which you can't bounce anyway) or Aether Vial, or Dark Confidant, or Goyf, or any other litany of cards you want to get rid of and not have to contemplate again the following turn.

[Purple_Rain]

i dont know how on earth anyone can play this deck without white for swords and to enhance EE which solves the vial and mongoose problem. this also opens up the retardedly amazing brainstorm plus fetchland which is actually all about card quality since that is the only thing this deck cares about, as most of the opponents cards are dead against this deck (stifle(you fetch t1 nub:P), wastelands, all removal).

and i have never had a problem vs goblins and i dont even play propaganda, esp since i play fetchs and get to side in plagues after sb(even g1 im about 55-45).

and what is this metagame that apprently is right for MUC. this deck can beat everything if tuned properly, well more or less without corrupting it vs the rest of the field.

[4eak]

@ Purple_Rain

Your list sounds like it is drifting towards Landstill (which I don't mind).

and what is this metagame that apprently is right for MUC. this deck can beat everything if tuned properly, well more or less without corrupting it vs the rest of the field.

Hmm...So you mean to say you have favorable matchups against the DTB gauntlet with a single list? Show me. So far, you're the only person to disagree with my point about about MUC targeting metagames (rather than being generically good, which it may have been before, but no longer is), and I'm interested to see what makes you say that.

I certainly think MUC has a shot against nearly any deck, but I'm not convinced you can make favorable matchups against the entire DTB gauntlet. I'll be happy to test the list you provide.




peace,
4eak

[reale]

Hi all. First post here, but i read almost all the 120+ pages back in some years (this and the old topics).

I have an old MUC based in a stack-oriented list since I stopped to play. Now, backing to the game and knowing all those newest MUC's enemies, I'm converting my list to fit some permanents to (try) gain the control of the board through them. I'm not convinced yet (and a lot of people probably won't like what i'll say) that a permanent oriented list is (a lot of) better than a 16-18 or even 20 counters on it with 2-3 B2B and the traditional split 2/2 shakles/keg plus morph.

Since I'm not trying to win the world and just looking for a enjoyable deck that has a (good) chance to win in a wide meta, i would opt in: more counters to the early game and play those shakles/kegs only when I got 2 mana available (after paying its costs). The only thing I'm really trying to do is not lose to an Extended/Standard deck and have a good match against any Legacy deck.

I don't have a well finished list since my tests are very rarely yet, but soon I share with you what i'm thinking about MUC for what i want to do with it.

Now, my question: isn't 2 Morph and 2 Teferi a good choice since Teferi's abilities would let you put him without tap in your turn and provides a Morph to come down to the battlefield the same way with Flash? What about the "soft lock" Teferi provides? Isn't good? Why not? If he resolves in the end of opponent's turn, he can't answer with nothing until his next turn, where i'm untapped waiting with that disrupt for his removal and maybe an end-of-turn morph on turn 6-7-8.

If I have more magic (plus quicksand AND mishra's factory) to handle until turn 8, isn't a good strategy? Another things I'm trying to fit in the MD is 2 CotV and 1 Misdirection.

Thank you.

PS: It seems like I'm talking with friends since I've been reading you for a long time.

[Jason]

Now, my question: isn't 2 Morph and 2 Teferi a good choice since Teferi's abilities would let you put him without tap in your turn and provides a Morph to come down to the battlefield the same way with Flash? What about the "soft lock" Teferi provides? Isn't good? Why not? If he resolves in the end of opponent's turn, he can't answer with nothing until his next turn, where i'm untapped waiting with that disrupt for his removal and maybe an end-of-turn morph on turn 6-7-8.

I used to play with Teferi and I found it isn't that exciting against anything outside of control match-ups. Sure it was a 5-mana "destroy target Mongoose" a couple times and it is a hilarious response to your opponent casting Dreadnought, but most of the time, it was a flop that would have been better served as another Shackles, Keg, Back to Basics or counter.

As many have said numerous times, creatures are not the reason MUC wins (hint: it's Shackles and/or Back to Basics). Teferi was only good for me when I had another creature - Morphling or Meloku are the most exciting with Teferi - in hand. That can be problematic, seeing as most MUC lists don't play more than 7 or 8 creatures (and that's on the really high end with most topping out at 3 or 4 creatures). However, even when I did have more creatures and played Teferi, it was too slow for its 5-mana cost. Only against control decks was I able to play it at end-of-turn. I'd get in for a whole 3 damage before my opponent would just play a main phase Swords which I didn't want to counter. Against aggro decks I had to play Teferi defensively, flashing it in to kill a Factory or Mongoose. This left it open to being Swords or burned out in the second main phase. In both match-ups, I was usually in a situation where protecting Teferi was a waste of a counter because I needed to keep the counter magic to protect the real bombs - Shackles and/or Back to Basics.

[socialite]

I have not been happy with Ancestral Visions. I agree that it is an excellent card for what it does in MUC. However I have been increasingly disappointed in the quality of the card in the mid to late game. I have also been annoyed by the fragility of card in regards to it being stifled and or countered upon resolution (true for most cards however suspend gives the opponent time to react).

I do not want to add Brainstorm, Polluted Delta, and Flooded Strand. I like making all of my land drops as well as being immune to non basic hate and Stifle.

I still need a filtering effect to help rid myself of mana flood/mana screw. What is left to complement Fact or Fiction as well as help with filtering? I was thinking Opt but that seems very weak.

Any suggestions?

[reale]

I used to play with Teferi and I found it isn't that exciting against anything outside of control match-ups. Sure it was a 5-mana "destroy target Mongoose" a couple times and it is a hilarious response to your opponent casting Dreadnought, but most of the time, it was a flop that would have been better served as another Shackles, Keg, Back to Basics or counter.

Thanks for the light. So, is another creature with Flash viable? Is there any blue creature with Flash/Shroud, walking around on the Legacy's plane just having a good time in the albumn, waiting to join the list?

I still can't digest Meloku.....

[Nessaja]

Palinchron? Not exactly has either but useful just the same.

[Tea]

@Ertai's Familiar
I think you have to find a way to make use of the lands you draw in the lategame. That’s why I like CtS. The problem is that there is no good filtering effect available without fetchlands.
Some suggestions…but probably they suck:
Intuition, you can use it like a cantrip in the early/mid-game fetching 3 lands. So you get a land for the early/mid-game and you reduce the number of lands you can draw in the lategame.
Have you tried Oona’s grace?

[socialite]

@Ertai's Familiar
I think you have to find a way to make use of the lands you draw in the lategame. That’s why I like CtS. The problem is that there is no good filtering effect available without fetchlands.
Some suggestions…but probably they suck:
Intuition, you can use it like a cantrip in the early/mid-game fetching 3 lands. So you get a land for the early/mid-game and you reduce the number of lands you can draw in the lategame.
Have you tried Oona’s grace?

I tried CtS a while back when it was first brought up in this thread. To say I dislike the card would be an understatement. I'm looking to avoid drawing excess lands to begin with, cards like Oona's Grace are far too situational. 3CC for Intuition is too much, I was hoping to find something in the 1CC Instant group. Unfortunately it seems as though Opt is the best in that department when excluding Brainstorm and Ponder.

[Doks]

You don't run fetchlands, so Impulse is the next viable choice.

It got forgotten in the last pages of this thread, but it's still there and a great filtering card.
Only problem with you running no shuffle effects would be that you might not see cards you put back on the bottom of your library which is annoying some times and forces you to take a finisher e. g. instead of the needed answer, but those cases are rare.

4x Impulse
4x FoF

should do it very well in a non-fetchland build with 24 lands.

[reale]

Doks, could you share with us your recent build?

[socialite]

You don't run fetchlands, so Impulse is the next viable choice.

It got forgotten in the last pages of this thread, but it's still there and a great filtering card.
Only problem with you running no shuffle effects would be that you might not see cards you put back on the bottom of your library which is annoying some times and forces you to take a finisher e. g. instead of the needed answer, but those cases are rare.

4x Impulse
4x FoF

should do it very well in a non-fetchland build with 24 lands.

Forgot about Impulse, for shame. Good idea I will try it out.

On another note. Do we need something like this vs. Storm?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...837#post377837

[Dembones]

Forgot about Impulse, for shame. Good idea I will try it out.

On another note. Do we need something like this vs. Storm?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...837#post377837

I don't think so. We usually have upwards of 12 counterspells, and Back to Basics ruins the mana bases in most of the storm decks.

It might be nice to be able to side out shackles for that card, though.

[GGoober]

I would rather run Arcanis over Palinchron. Arcanis saves himself and activating him 1-2 times is good enough to end the game. Arcanis has been my most recent testing in perm-based MUC. It's still a little iffy, but drawing 3 (4) cards per turn is too backbreaking if he's unresolved. In Landstill, people mention Jace being the gg-factor if he is undealt with, but Arcanis, if undealt is even more backbreaking. Drawing those cards will get you counterspells/answers against anything they play. He's only good in perm-based MUC since you need good board control to set him up for the lategame.

[Tea]

Instead of playing Arcanis, you can just win the game, that is, you can just play Meloku.

Recently, I have played a lot with Brainstorm: I have to say it’s really strong – even without Fetchlands. BS improves your early-game incredibly, but most importantly it assures that you can drop a land each turn.
Another card which proves to be very strong is Ponder. It’s my BS 5 and 6.
You will never cast Ponder (or BS) before turn 3 and on turn 3, it has been a common play of me playing Ponder on my turn finding a counterspell.

Basically, I have tried out 4eak’s list from page 32. Impulse is also quite good, but I have found Ponder to be just better. However, I think Mishra’s Factory is a mistake. It weakens an early Vedalken shackles and loosing a land is really a bad thing, because FoF and Meloku need a lot of Mana. As a win-condition Mishra’s Factory is weak as well, and it can be hit by StP. Though, it is ok, if the opponent does not run Wasteland.


lands: 24
5 fetchland
19 Island

board-control: 7
4 Vedalken shackles
3 Nevinyrral’s Disk

win-condition: 3
3 Meloku

Draw: 10
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

counter: 16
4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak

[Nidd]

What are the best wincons now, that Morphling got nerfed by the new combatruling?

Cerulean Sphinx?
Vexing Sphinx?
Rimefeather Owl?
Jace Beleren?

[Arsenal]

None of those, with an outside shot at Jace, are better than M10 Morphling. He's still top 3, with Meloku, Call the Skybreaker, and Sower/Kira among the contenders.

[Nidd]

Is CtSB really that good? I mean, it's expensive and eats your landdrops. But well, lategame you won't need that many lands, anyways...

Kira looks a bit slow to me. It will take you on average 9 turns (Let's assume our opponent cracks 2 fetches...) to kill an opponent.

Meloku... awesome idea. And he costs only 1 buck/piece. Hooray!

What are your thoughts on Forbid-lock? With a Jace on the table, you can counter 1 spell per turn consistently.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I have been testing Vendilion Clique lately and must say that it is pretty good. It may not seem impressive on paper but it's a three mana flyer that hits for three with a really great comes into play ability. Also it has flash which means you never have to commit to playing it on your own turn making it an ideal card for this deck. I'd definitely recommend trying it if you haven't as it's definitely worth the inclusion.

Since I've been running Sower of Temptation for some time; the addition of Vendilion Clique has me thinking of taking the deck in a more faerie oriented direction and adding Spellstutter Spite and possibly Mistbind Clique. Anyone else test with faeries and have an opinion on such builds?