Is there a such thing as too many Stingscourger? What about Gempalm Incinerator? At one time, my removal was drastically lower. Now though, with Zoo, Merfolk, the mirror and sometimes Thresh, I kind of want them again.
I think I need to work on a new list.
Mongoose has shroud, goyf is to big and both decks lower ur dudecount with burn, so even nacatl and ape are aout of reach most of the time. :(
@ Forbiddian: I would keep that hand, more than likely. I'd probably go turn 2 sting, turn 3 try go with matroning up a second ringleader and then turn 4 ringleader. Depending on the situation either turn 5 SGC or turn 5 ringleader. At that point the zoo player is going to be in a bad position when you have basically a stream of potential blockers and eventually too many guys for them to handle. I would still hold back some, maybe even the second ringleader, if I feared a clasm effect on the way. I probably wouldn't matron for anything other than ringleader except maybe a second stingscourger if you can't get a fourth land and you are desperate to slow down the clock against you. If this is the case though you are in trouble.
@ P.S.: I wouldn't play 4 stingscourgers. He can be cloggy. I've always been a fan of 6 "removal" spells in the deck with a mixture of weirding/gempalm/stingy, but 5 has also worked for me in the past.
@ Humphrey: Gempalm is conditional, yes, but he is uncounterable and cantripping. He is best in the transitional phases when you are about to go from the army building phase (whether to get around a fat loam crusher or a zoo gang) to the swift killing phase. Otherwise his main role in the format is to kill grim lavamancer and dark confidant (you CANNOT let dark confidant sit around for too long in pretty much any matchup. but that's true for pretty much any deck haha :P).
I know at this point it may seem like to many that I am way to into overextending, but I would disagree with that. First of all, overextension is usually the easiest way to win with goblins, especially game 1. Just be careful not to be running into MD firespout and pernicious deed and WOG and what have you. But with ringleader you can usually recover pretty quickly, and once you have your 8 ringleaders going really active then you can generally afford to play out a large number of guys and still hold many back in your hand. It's extremely important that once the goblin engine gets going, you kill the opponent before they have time to answer your card advantage. The only matchup where this really concerns me is postboard zoo if they bring in pyroclasm, but that's a strange combination of a deck where they take on the aggro role AND they use a clasm effect against us, and there is no other deck in the format that does such a thing.
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Hi, fairly new to this format, borrowed a deck now and then for small tournaments, but plan to start playing at a weekly one a short drive away. Anyway, here's what I'm looking at:
4 Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
Sideboard is usually a game day decision, but will likely have
3 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 [Something]
What I've found from initial hands/games is:
-I'd probably like one more land
-I see a bunch of lists running more chieftain but have no idea where to squeeze him in
-Ringleader is far and away my favorite card in the deck and I wish I could run 5
-Is stingscourger really any good? I see a bunch of lists running it, but it hasn't blown my mind as anything beyond a bear that bounces a goyf. Unless I'm missing something
Anyone have any input? Still new to the deck, even though I've read most of this thread, so anything at all is always helpful.
he hits more than Goyf. In the mirror you can Vial him in to bounce an unopposed Lackey, he puts away Lords as a combat trick against Merfolk, Manlands for Landstill, more than 1/2 of the creatures in Thresh, and random junk in random decks (Rafiq in Bant Survival. If you ever want to get an S:PL on Workstation, Vial a Stingscourger against Rafiq).
The deck is good. If you want to change just a few things, try -1 Fanatic, -1 Piledriver, +2 Mountains.
Instigator is good. Try it sometime.
Also those 4 remainig SB slots: Pyroknesis.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
@02Drop: Not to be ridiculously picky or anything, but can I suggest replacing the Crypts with Relic of Progenitus? Relic gives you the card draw and offers a pretty good solution to Tarmogoyfs....the only real thing Crypt has over Relic is the lower cost. Also, running a mono-red list, I'm still not sure if Fanatic makes the cut. Some people will probably disagree with me, but I'd much rather run good 2 or 3 drops over the Fanatics.
Luke Ario sweeps...and not only in Brawl
I could see going down a Fanatic for a mountain, Moggy's not blowing my mind after the damage changes. I dunno about Piledriver personally, but I'll test it with 3. I just find it a lot of matches I've played, his damage getting through is game over. I matron for him quite a lot for that reason. As for Relic, it's 50/50 to me. I like crypt because when dredge or whatever does it's thing turn 1-3, I can play crypt and a goblin. An extra card is always nice though. I'll noodle with it.
Agreed with FoulQ:
1) Don't race with zoo, slow and steady win u the game. You just need to endure till your 4th and 5th.
2) Aether Vial is critical in the first hand, but if you don't get it, you can keep a lackey hand with removal, as long as you can buy time.
3) @P.S: I played lightning bolt and it is a MVP against zoo as it kills the cat , ape and early turn pridemage that kills your vial. I felt stingscourger x 3 is a good number, 4th is overkill.
4) Goblin kill is crazy against zoo when they overexpanded their removal on your gobs for their critters to attack you.
My Japanese WI is arriving soon, coming with a new list like this:
17 mountains
2 ports
4 waste
4 ringleader
4 lackey
3 warchief
4 chieftain
2 SGC
1 kikijiki
3 matron
3 WI
2 piledriver
2 stingscourger
1 goblin king
4 vials
4 lightning bolts
4 chieftain/ 3 warchief is much of my personal choice and I have no problem with that combination. I hate to reduce the matron to 3 but nothing much to cut, kiki jiki is awesome for late game. I wanted to reduce the number of piledriver to 1 but I do not want to lose to merfolk matchup. Any food for thoughts?
About the deck:
Fanatic is not really worth it anymore. At least not the 4of, 2 should be enough to have some kind of curve.
With less fanatics in the deck Gempalm becomes less appealing, and stingscourger becomes better. You're actually playing only 4 removal slots in the deck, so you probably have to work with them anyway (I'd play 6, but you can go with 5).
So I'd start with -2/3 Fanatics +1 Mountain, +1 Chieftain, +0/1 Stingscourger
And the, after you realize how powerful Chieftain is in fulfilling pilderiver's role, and how piledriver is useful only when you already have a lot of dudes on board, I'd go with
-4 Fanatics, -1 Gempalm, -1 Piledriver, +1 Mountain, +3 Chieftain, +2 Stingscourger.
About the SB:
You need 4 Pyrokinesis, unless your meta has zero aggro decks.
I'd also switch the tormods (or at least a couple of them) with relics, that almost act like cantripping removal against Goyf, and are really nice against tombstalker and other non-ichorid grave-based strategies (like Survival and Loam).
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
The MU agains Merfolk is not won solelly by Piledriver. You are overall better. Specially with Knesis on the SB. In your list I'd drop the King for the 4th Matron.
@02Drop: I have, in my last champ (finally) dropped Fanatics. I was playing R/b, and had 4 Weirdings, 1 Gempalm, 4 Bolt as removal. In Monored, I'd suggest bolt. If you don't like it, use 4 Stingscourer/Gempalm.
I have also dropped Piledriver to 3 and, I thiunk it never really make a diference not running 4...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
About Knesis, i dont think its absolutely neccessary, because all the aggrodecks run high toughness critters. So u always trade 2:1 and not 2:2. Bolt would be the better choice i guess. (or EE)
Bolt can be indeed sided against say, landstill, taking out things like Stingscourger, but Kinesis is really good against tribal decks, survival, Bant aggro. Even trading 2for1 with an early goyf is good. The good thing about Kinesis is also to be free, and thus speeding up the deck's developement. Trading 2for1 against zoo is not bad, if you manage to gain a board position faster and reach the mid-late game, where you have a card advantage engine and they don't.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Alright, here is my list right now:
I was going to copy FoulQ's SB but i cant locate it16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
SB:
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Boartusk Liege
1 ?????
So two things against zoo. Goblin King and Lightning Bolt, are they that effective? Should I MD them or SB them? What should I remove/side in for them?
Is Anarchy good against Humility/Moat/Ghostly Prison effects?
How do I beat a Landstill deck with this deck (U/R with Volcanic Fallout and lots of burn on their main)? Should I change my deck with a lot of Lord effects?
Is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker that effective on MD?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@ dr4g0n: I would not say relic is strictly better than crypt. I am currently running a 3/1 split of relic/crypt. I do not think boarding in relic for goyf alone is really worth it. Tacosnape offered an explanation of the two cards not very far back in the thread. I'm not going to quote it because it will make things confusing with the rest of the quotes:
"So after a lot of testing and thought, I'm starting to second guess Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard over Tormod's Crypt. The logic being, an enemy deck has to have a pretty strong graveyard engine for me to want to board in hate and drop my Goblin count. The three most common things I think I see where I need graveyard hate are:
1. Ichorid. I've seriously lost a ton of games where the game state turned irrecoverable at the time where my board was "Tapped Land, Relic." With Crypt, I don't need mana open to crack the thing, and I can spend my mana dropping Lackeys, Vials, or whatever.
2. Anything with Life From The Loam. In theory? Relic's better here. However, with Aggro Loam arguably being the most common Loam deck and them being able to Chalice-1, sometimes it's easier to get the Crypt going.
3. Reanimator, Cephalid Breakfast, or other weird graveyard-based combo. Crypt is faster.
Relic's good against Tarmogoyf and Crypt isn't, no debate. However, against most decks packing Tarmogoyf? Relic still isn't worth boarding in. Only in the Aggro Loam matchup do I find myself aching for Relics. So why do I have a card in my sideboard that's good in a situation where I will usually still leave it in my sideboard?"
@02Drop: If you are matroning for piledriver and you are not planning on winning that turn, I usually would not do that. The only matchup where that is sometimes okay is merfolk, or if you really know you are going to win next turn with something absurd like two piledrivers. But banking on your opponent not having a removal spell to win the game can be risky, especially if your opponent has a lot of removal spells or a better late game than you.
Try doing a 2/2 split or something first of relic/crypt. That will make it fairly obvious, over time, which one you prefer. Or hell, you might just keep the split.
@DomoKun: I would never cut a matron if I'm attempting to play vial goblins. Without 4 matrons, 4 ringleaders, 4 lackeys, and 4 vials, (and to some extent mountain/wasteland/warchief), the whole philosophy of the deck falls apart and certain card choices based upon this philosophy (such as SGC) start to really not work as well.
@ ScatmanX: While Piledriver does not win the matchup alone, in my testing I found him to both be the best guy for the early game (excluding probably aether vial) and the best guy to win the game with (particularly in multiples, you can win in one turn!). I agree though, I'd probably drop the king for the 4th matron, and piledriver is not at all necessary to win the matchup, especially with postboard kinesis.
@ Humphrey: Test it. The card is much better in practice than on paper, like warren instigator. Kinesis is great in a format defined by tempo. Pyrokinesis is an absolute house in the merfolk and mirror matchup. It is one of your best cards in the zoo matchup, because if you can kill their large guys than your card advantage and land superiority will overwhelm them. Plus, with so many aggro decks on the rise these days, it curb stomps them as well...eva green, goyf sligh, some incarnation of white weenie, bitterblossom faeries, ug fish, you name it.
My current sideboard is this:
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pithing Needle
But I don't recommend Jitte unless your meta is infested with merfolk AND you think there will be a lot of opposing jittes in your metagame. People here are strangely obsessed with jitte so I feel forced to run it.
Man, I hate to follow-up that lengthy post with my drivel, however I just wanted to say that I have no faith in Goblins anymore and I will be switching decks. I just do not feel that it is a good metagame choice for me anymore. I played the deck for a few years, and it served me well. However, with Zoo and ANT picking up in bigger numbers and the numbers of Merfolk dropping, I just no longer feel comfortable taking a Goblin deck to a tournament that I am trying to win.
Zoo and ANT aren't really picking up, or if they are in your local meta, it's almost certainly stochastic drift. At the very least, because ANT beats Zoo, increasing ANT numbers will push Zoo back down. I think the most important change affecting current decks is the two new trap cards, which both hurt combo decks. There will also be Metalworker decks running around, Dream Halls decks, and probably Reanimator, but I doubt in large numbers.
I agree that Goblins is fairly susceptible to metagame shifts. It's generally much better against control and aggro/control strategies and very weak against combo, but I don't see much in the new metagame that would lead me to believe that Goblin's bad matchups should increase.
I'm going to what I expect to be a fairly large tournament at the end of this month (The SCG 1k in Roanoke) and since this deck is so meta dependent, is this a reasonable choice? I mean, given that size, you should pretty much expect the gauntlet. It's all I've got (Save for a bad 9 land stompy) so if I do play, I'll pack it. But would you bring gobbs of a mono-red variety to this?
Hi folks,
I went to a fairly large tournament - 55 people, I think - with a Rb Vial Goblins last weekend and did 2nd place.
I've made no notes and I'm just too lazy to do a detailed report, but I did ID with a friend in the first round, beat 5 colors Aggro Slivers, BGw Rock, lost to mirror and beat Zoo in the swiss. Then beat Enchantress, Merfolk and lost to the mirror again in the final.
My list is maybe a bit outdated. I don't have Instigators and I've left Chieftains in the sideboard because I expected a large number of Dredges and thus used 4 Fanatic main (they killed like 4 Grim Lavamancers and 3 Dark Confidants during the tournament, so I'm happy with then even though I've met no Ichorid).
The black splash was for Weirdings and Wort, Boggart Auntie mainboard and Squads in the sideboard. Weirdings was obviously great against Slivers and Enchantress. I was displeased with Wort the whole tournament and almost always sided them out, as they need to survive unitll my next turn to do anything and that never happened. Squads protected me from Engineered Plagues agains Rock, I believe they are a solid sideboard choice for Rb builds, but don't think there is space for them maindeck.
The price was 15 Zendikar boosters that I've opened for nothing good. But anyway, the travel and the tournament was a lot of fun.
Props to
- All the guys that organized the tournament, although I'm not sure people from Belo Horizonte read this forum.
- Nuclear, for lending me the Rishadan Ports, and for the ride!
- Maurão, for lending me the Malaterra, and for beating Enchantress with GW Midrange Aggro.
- ScatmanX, for lending me the 3 Pyrokinesis
- Fuzzy, who taught some guys the way to approach Belo Horizonte girls
- All the guys from São Paulo that went to BH.
- Miguel, for 4th place after the 5-1 finish with TES!
- Outback's Blooming Onion
Slops:
- ScatmanX, for trying Food Chain Goblins. It is not the way to go, Vial is still better
It really is hard to say. The last SCG was a terrible choice for goblins because there was apparently a lot of storm combo (since their was so much zoo the time before). The metagame has therefore made a full shift and I doubt it will change where tons of people are playing countertop again. I think you will see zoo, merfolk, countertop, storm, ichorid, and goblins. There will also be some tempo thresh, stax, and new decks (dark depths / metalworker / entomb decks, etc.). I think you might see a lot of tempo thresh actually, because it just recently won a 135 man tournament (according to deckcheck), and can play ball just fine with storm/zoo/goblins/merfolk. With a meta like that I'd probably want to play either mono-red or red-black. Red-black will give you some tools to fight storm as well as warren weirding for the canadian matchup. It will also give you an OK answer to plague and clasm effects (chieftain + earwig together), which generally see more play at bigger tournaments because decks like goblins usually show up in disproportionate numbers. I think an aether vial deck will be a great choice, because it gets around all the blue decks and stax variants, and also helps in the tempo mirror match. If I were to run red-black I'd want a sideboard of maxing out chieftains, earwig squad, chalice of the void, pyrokinesis, maxing out weirdings. Or something of that nature. Maybe perish and a singleton jitte or something. Without loam being a major player I don't think grave hate is worth it for just ichorid/canadian. Note that chalice of the void will SHOCK tempo thresh players and zoo players (but probably only want it on the play), and is obviously a good tool against storm.
tl, dr: I believe so. Whether to splash for black I think is the real question. Does stifle/waste vulnerability hurt your canadian matchup more than the gains from warren weirding and the black armada? And is that stifle/waste vulnerability worth it for tools against storm and possibly other matchups? In the end though, you'll probably do best with whatever deck or goblin variant you think you are most comfortable with.
@ Lebarion: Do you have a list or tourney report on hand we could take a look at?
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