I was wondering if I may be able to get some critique or advise. I understand that we need at least 10 dredgers in order to chain properly. But what is the recommended amount? 11-12? I see that 4reak mentioned 14, but that tended to be different that the usual amounts I see form lists floating around.
I been keeping records on a notebook as I keep gold fishing the deck, while the average seems to be between T3-T4, there's also some games where it took me till T6 to win as well. Granted it was rare, but is it due to the use of lesser (weaker) dredgers?
I am currently using the following configuration:
4 Cephalid Colliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cabal Theraphy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Darkblast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
3 Street Wraith
//Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Unmask
I went with Darkblast as I am not very fond of seeing my Ichorids get targeted by Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. With the loss of the thugs, I felt that Ichorid doesn't have much food, so I went with Street Wraith as they both serve as gas for dredging and food for Ichorids.
The card Tireless Tribe, that I see some people here making room for them. Are they better than strictly having more draws to keep going? I thought he have enough ways to get our cards into the graveyard. Or were they added in for specific match ups or scenarios?
Thank you.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Your clothes are black!Originally Posted by jimirynk
Do what he says or he'll cut off your big toe... ooh that is tender
Zappa: Run tireless tribe... He is that good.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
@ Zappa
Let's use the data I've just made to help us (in some small part) consider your question. Below are the differences in chain-dredging between using Darkblast and Thugs as Dredgers 9-12. (I'm using a notebook with a million games recorded for each test)I understand that we need at least 10 dredgers in order to chain properly. But what is the recommended amount? 11-12? I see that 4reak mentioned 14, but that tended to be different that the usual amounts I see form lists floating around.
I been keeping records on a notebook as I keep gold fishing the deck, while the average seems to be between T3-T4, there's also some games where it took me till T6 to win as well. Granted it was rare, but is it due to the use of lesser (weaker) dredgers?
If you only discarded up to one dredger before Drawing:
12 Dredgers (4x Darkblast)
0 Dredges = 14.8%
1 Dredges = 27.4%
2 Dredges = 13.0%
3 Dredges = 8.0%
4 Dredges = 36.9%
12 (4x Thugs)
0 Dredges = 14.8%
1 Dredges = 25.8%
2 Dredges = 11.8%
3 Dredges = 7.2%
4 Dredges = 40.4%
You'll see roughly a 3.5% difference in fully chained Breakthroughs, a 1.6% difference in your Street Wraith/Draw Step or Careful Study dredge Chains, etc.
If you discarded up to 2 cards (not always 2 cards, but were always capable of exactly that: e.g. you 1st turn Study.):
12 (4x Darkblast)
0 Dredges = 14.8%
1 Dredges = 11.4%
2 Dredges = 10.8%
3 Dredges = 8.2%
4 Dredges = 54.9%
12 (4x Thugs)
0 Dredges = 14.8%
1 Dredges = 10.1%
2 Dredges = 9.4%
3 Dredges = 7.0%
4 Dredges = 58.7%
If you could discard any number of cards at will (PImp/Tribe):
12 (4x Darkblast)
0 Dredges = 14.8%
1 Dredges = 11.4%
2 Dredges = 8.5%
3 Dredges = 6.7%
4 Dredges = 58.6%
12 (4x Thugs)
0 Dredges = 14.8%
1 Dredges = 10.2%
2 Dredges = 7.3%
3 Dredges = 5.6%
4 Dredges = 62.2%
The chain-dredging differences between Darkblast and Thug aren't as large as many might assume. Dredging power, specifically regarding Chain-Dredging (which tries to put Darkblast in its worst light) is not too significantly changed by using Darkblasts instead of Thugs. If you aren't chain-dredging, then Darkblast is likely the stronger dredger because you can cast it to get it into the GY, both acting as removal and not requiring a discard outlet. There are reasons to run Thug instead of Darkblast, but dredging power isn't a very significant one in my book. Feeding Ichorid and hardcasting Thug are the main reasons I consider Thug a worthy choice. I would consider playing a 2/2 or 3/3 Thug/Darkblast split if I were you.
Running dredgers 13/14 have major consequences to your consistency. By adding 2 more dredgers, and assuming you only keep hands with a Dredger (or something like 2x Breakthrough + 2x Lands w/no dredgers, which is still quite rare), You will mulligan 4-7% less often (depending on how many dredgers you were running and would choose to add) and your ability to chain dredgers together improves with 10% more success in your total games. Those improvements together make a significant difference for only changing 2 cards in your deck.
I'd like to point out to others that Darkblast very often acts as its own discard outlet, and thus his lack of Tribe isn't as awful as we'd initially think, particularly in slow-roller situations that PImp/Tribe excel at performing. However, please notice how PImp/Tribe improves your fabled Breakthrough from a ~40% chance to a ~60% to succeed over your usual DDD or perhaps a Therapy on a dredger (regardless of Thug/DBlast choice). Even if Darkblast is good at getting itself into the GY, I think you should start testing Tribe immediately. Street Wraith's would be the first thing to go, imho.
Street Wraith isn't doing a shit-ton for you.
TL:DR version:
-1 Darkblast
-3 Street Wraith
+3 or +2 Golgari Thug
+1 or +2 Tireless Tribe
peace,
4eak
Switched the list around a bit to get ready for Ohio.
Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
Other 14
2 Dread return
4 Bridge from below
4 Narcomebia
4 Ichorid
DR Target/s 2
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
Discard 12
4 Cabal therapy
4 Putrid imp
4 Tireless tribe
Discard/gas 8
4 Carefull study
4 Break through
Lands 13
4 City of brass
4 Gemstone mine
3 Cephalid coliseum
2 Undiscovered paradise
Lark was good all day but their are few decks that can remove bridges game1. I found that Iona does the same thing FKZ does and more.
If you can therapy your opponent and DR it turn 2 it does the same as winning that turn. Also helps the combo MU/ichorid/belcher/tes/solidarity.
I also found it to help prison MU's white staxs/enchantress/and 43 lands.dec.
sage/sphinx is still a toss up, Sage is hands down better if you didnt need thresh do to the fact if you don't have/need a dredger you can practically brainstorm.
Sphinx is better for the fact that it helps you slow roll game2/3 do to not having to drop your hand to give it thresh.
Do to testing Vs. ravenous trap every card you can keep in your hand will help, so, Sphinx was chosen.
My sideboard right now.
4 Chain of vapor
4 Ancient grudge
2 Ray of revelation really like vs. leyline and landstill
4 Unmask God damn you ravenous trap
1 ???? (its a FKZ in testing, but nvr want to side out the Iona/sphinx even vs. combo/prison)
I might switch to this..
4 Chain of vapor vs. leyline
4 Unmask vs. combo/prison/and ravenous trap
4 Leyline of the void TAKE THAT DREDGE PLAYERS
3 Ancient grudge MVP vs. countertop not as need vs. the rest of the field
Last edited by jimirynk; 11-16-2009 at 05:20 PM.
Thank you, I'll begin testing the Tireless Tribe. As for running that many dredgers however, I don't know how I could squeeze them in. I could, probably, take out some of the lands to go down to 13-14. However, I am not very comfortable with that amount.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
@ Zappa
I thought about your question some more Zappa. I advocated tribe to you with some evidence, but not with enough context or a comparison to the alternatives. After a closer look at raw dredging, if I'm reading the data correctly:
If you go -3 SW, +3 Tribe, and assuming discard-creature-based keepable hands will have both a rainbow land and dredger, you move from a 25% chance (just PImps) to a 38% chance (PImps and Tribe) to open a discard-creature viable hand. With regards to chain-dredging, in 13% of your total games: Breakthrough becomes 22% more successful, CC becomes 20% more successful, and Careful Study becomes 17% more successful.
If you go -3 SW, +1 Tribe, +2 Dredger: You move from 25% to 29% to open a discard-creature viable hand. By adding dredgers, your ability to chain dredge is increased by ~9-10% across the board (regardless of your discard mechanism). You also will mulligan by ~5% less often. Many of these benefits are the same as adding going straight tribe, so we can cancel things out to compare their unique characteristics.
Canceling out similar benefits, which of these is better?
Using +3 Tribes
- In 9% of your games:
- Breakthrough has 12% gains in success of total games
- CC has 11% gains in success of total games
- Study has 10% gains in success of total games
----------------or---------------
Using +1 Tribe, +2 Dredgers
- ~5% less mulligans total
- Percentage of games in which you get a Dredger into the GY without using PImp/Tribe (not exactly sure how to calculate that):
- Breakthrough has 10% gains in success of total games
- CC has 9% gains in success of total games
- Study has 7% gains in success of total games
I DDD/Therapy/Study/Break dredgers from my hand in at least 9% of my games (without proof, I'd just say 'way more than 9%'). Even if was only 9-10% though, it becomes equivalent to the dredging power provided by Tribe, leaving fewer mulligans as the remaining benefit that hasn't been canceled out in the comparison. I believe the number is greater than 9% though, which only increases the value of the dredgers compared to tribe. The discard mechanism becomes slightly less important when you can run a self-discarding dredger too.
Other benefits/negatives like using sideboard cards, some circumstances of slow-rolling, removal from Darkblast, Ichorid Fodder, odds of flipping GY goodies, the fact that Tribe is a creature aren't directly considered. Sorry about that. I'm not sure how to go about quantifying it.
The moral of the story is that your discard mechanism is important, but not at the cost of running dredgers. I'm pretty much convinced that consistency is increased more by Dredgers at this point. It makes sense too, as running a disproportionate amount of Dredgers to lands, discard and draw effects would lower consistency. Why run 11 Dredgers with 14-15 land and 14-15 draw/discard effects when you expect to see all of them in your hand?
The general feeling towards limiting the quantity of Dredgers in a deck which is purposely seeking consistency appears to be a mistake.
peace,
4eak
How are you guys running 4 Coliseums?
I might go down to 2.. they don't make colored mana so they're only good with a CS.
Games 2/3 you NEED a rainbow land no exception.
So 10-11 RAINBOW lands game 2/3 are what I believe to give you the least mulligans.
Might put 1 in the board and switch out a Coliseum games 2/3 seems like a wasted spot tho..
Might just make my mana base:
4 City of brass
4 Gemstone mine
2 Cephalid coliseum
3 Undiscovered paradise
@ jimirynk
Uses for Blue mana:How are you guys running 4 Coliseums?
I might go down to 2.. they don't make colored mana so they're only good with a CS.
- Careful Study
- Breakthrough
- Narcomoeba
- Chain of Vapor
- CC-activation
Also, playing through any form of mana-denial can make its ability to produce blue quite important. Even if it only acts as a bluff, forcing your opponent to take out CC or risk getting blown out.
You propose running 13 land. I'd suggest 14 as the minimum. Go 3/3 Split on CC/Paradise or drop one paradise for a citadel (yuck, I know). You'll still need that blue mana.
Without LED, CC does lose some value, but not by that much. With higher quantities of land, CC is arguably even more activateable (I see more permission than mana-denial) in LEDless. The only difference is really 'when you choose to activate it', which is generally turns 2, 3 or 4, whereby you've already set up the board/GY to go off.
I'm guessing it would be a mistake to run less than 3 CC, and I really don't see why you wouldn't want the 4th. It is uncounterable and costs the same amount of mana as Careful Study; albeit it is conditional on Thresh. This isn't a terrible thing though, as it is clearly unwise to cast Breakthrough until you have good odds of chaining it (which usually means you've got near Thresh or a single draw phase from it), and the same might apply to CC. Why waste the Draw 3 until you know you have good odds of chain dredging? CC, like Breakthrough, is one of the few cards that maintains the explosiveness of the deck. It does this while also being a land, and such a dual-role seems pretty sweet.
peace,
4eak
Man, I think you guys are playing this deck backwards, Tireless Tribe isn't just an outlet for your Dredger but an outlet for your hand - Darkblast's pitiful Dredge is nothing, and I mean nothing compared to even a Tireless Tribe + Golgari Thug hand. Plus, saying a Dredger that discards itself is "useful" is kind of ridiculous, because if you go second - and in game 2 you will - every Dredger discards itself.
I said what Is the us of Coliseum besides a CS, everything you listed requires another land (cov is only game 2 which you NEED a rainbow land) plus everything you listed can be done off a rainbow land so that doesn't justify running it as a 4 of.
1 lander coliseum hands are almost always a mulligan and about 50 percent of double coliseum hands are mulls.
Just throwing that out there.
On the lands..
I know 14 is the correct number
But I think I would rather run more rainbow land and up the dredgers to 12 before I would put the 14th land in.
The list is tight and their isn't a card I'd want to cut.
@ BreathWeapon
Yes, it is excellent for getting DR/Ichorid/Bridge/Grudge and occasionally CT trapped in your hand into the GY. I said there were other reasons to use Tribe. That is very useful, but I don't think I've missed the point by very much. Tribe/PImp are simply awesome at putting any number of dredgers into the GY over and over with the added bonus of maintaining synergy with your GY-goodies, generally allowing you to spend your mana instead of sitting in DDD mode. Consistently dredging the much larger quantity of those cards (in addition to other Dredgers, Black creatures and flipping Narcos) is still the primary reason to play tribe.Tireless Tribe isn't just an outlet for your Dredger but an outlet for your hand
You could at least take the time to explain yourself further. There is some harder evidence for why we would want to choose Dredgers + Tribe instead of pure Tribe, and you didn't address it at all.
I didn't say it was. You are comparing 2 cards to one though. Try comparing 1 to 1, and then you'll see they are much more comparable. There are plenty of times where solo Darkblast is going to cut it where nothing else will. And, there is a significant difference between running 11 or 12 dredgers and 14 dredgers; significant enough that we need to re-consider the value of some of our discard outlets.Darkblast's pitiful Dredge is nothing, and I mean nothing compared to even a Tireless Tribe + Golgari Thug hand.
At 12x Dredgers, you won't even have a dredger in your hand 15% of the time. You aren't including the rest of the hands that you need to mulligan as well. DDD is not always an option.Plus, saying a Dredger that discards itself is "useful" is kind of ridiculous, because if you go second - and in game 2 you will - every Dredger discards itself.
Having a dredger that discards itself is pertinent. I'm not calling it the 'end-all-be-all' card, but I will say it is a viable option which merits more consideration than you give it. Even calling it a 'pitiful dredge' next to Golgari Thug shows you haven't been paying attention to the math.
You'll also notice I'm advocating Darkblast in addition to Thugs. It is quite useful in general dredging and mulliganing. It isn't like we can't find room for it. For example, most lists could drop their maindeck DR targets for more dredging consistency (which I think you might agree to).
@ jimirynk
Um. Breakthrough doesn't require another land. And, depending on what you are CoVing, it may not require another rainbow land either.I said what Is the us of Coliseum besides a CS, everything you listed requires another land (cov is only game 2 which you NEED a rainbow land) plus everything you listed can be done off a rainbow land so that doesn't justify running it as a 4 of.
I'm not saying that tapping for blue mana is the only justification for playing CC; its activated ability is clearly the primary reason. You did not address this.
Not saying you made that up, but please elaborate. I can think of plenty 1-land CC hands which are keepable, albeit not optimal. Double CC hands + a Dredger seem acceptable (albeit not optimal), and yours odds of having a dredger are better than 50%.1 lander coliseum hands are almost always a mulligan and about 50 percent of double coliseum hands are mulls.
Just throwing that out there.
If 14 is the correct number, then why would you go on to say that it isn't the choice you would make? It either is the correct number (assuming you would choose what you believe to be correct) or it isn't.On the lands..
I know 14 is the correct number
But I think I would rather run more rainbow land and up the dredgers to 12 before I would put the 14th land in.
Good for you. It sounds like your mind was already made up before you asked the question. Say that next time, so you don't waste our time.The list is tight and their isn't a card I'd want to cut.
peace,
4eak
If you run 15 lands, you can run 4 Coliseum and 11 rainbow lands. Coliseum makes you mulligan a little bit more, but it's benefits are ridiculous. Plus, activating Coliseum guarantees you have another land anyway.
I would not run fewer than 15 lands; the need to have 2 lands to have resistance to Wasteland is pretty important.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I've just been gold fishing the deck ever since I've added the tireless tribes, though oddly enough... I've had 29 games total so far and I haven't had the opportunity to get to use them *sigh*. Perhaps maybe when I play it against my friends and things slow down due to hate they packed, I'll see it. But for now it hasn't come out for me yet.
I was able to squeeze in 13 dredgers but, I can't make room for the 14th as the list seems pretty tight unless I axe one of the tribes, I feel very uncomfortable dropping below 15 lands. I see others running less, but 15 for me is comfortable.
One thing, I'd like to ask or present, even though I may mention another card, the general framework of the deck is very much the same. Give or take a few cards...
But earlier, when I was browsing my box for the tireless tribes, I came across the card Life from the Loam. It has the exact same dredging power as a Darkblast, and can help abuse some cards in the deck. So I was wondering if such build for its inclusion may be possible, bold texts indicates what was put in, but the basic framework is the same...
4 Cephalid Colliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Life from the Loam
4 Cabal Theraphy
2 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
Life from the Loam can help abuse Cephalid Coliseum, and still have the same dredging power as Darkblast. It also helps with bringing back Bloodghast. I upped the land count for the list just to be able to use Life from the Loam, and the inclusion of salvage, can help reach that. Anyways, it is just something I was curious about. As I have no access to any Bloodghast (haven't bought any cards from the set), it's not something I can even bother with.
But back with the previous deck, with the suggestion of upping my Dredge count, and addition of Tireless Tribes, this is what I currently am goldfishing with...
4 Cephalid Colliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Theraphy
4 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Tireless Tribe
Sideboard
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Darkblast
1 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Unmask
Is the list looking okay? I don't know what to take out to add the 14th dredgers, without one of the draws or discard outlets getting the axe. But I guess, I'll also just sit back and see what's everyone's opinion on few things:
1) Tireless Tribe (Minimum to Recommended amount)
2) Darkblast (How people feel about it)
3) Dredgers (If people will stick with 10-11, or go with higher amount)
With number 3, specially from reading the old posts, some said 10 is the very minimum they'll run, and 11 seems to be the agreed upon number. So the higher counts now I am curious at. I am not very good at math so calculating stuff is not something I can do.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
No DR targets? (well, apart from golgari grave troll)
If you resolve Tireless Tribe and have a card with Dredge you can't possibly lose if your opponent uses the attack step.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Well, Goyfs are usually 5/6 against Ichorid.
edit-Ouch true
Right, so on turn three when they're attacking with their 5/6 and you for some reason don't have a 15/15 to block it with, you discard two irrelevant cards to blank their best one.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Those of you with Bloodghast, is there no Zoo in your area? Do you not find Kird Ape dominating Bloodghast in combat to be a problem?
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Since when having its creatures dominated is a problem for Ichorid?
Since your opponent parks a 2/3 in front of your offense and brings it to a screeching halt. It's of particular relevance postboard where you tend to grind out most of your games.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
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