[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Anusien]

Since when having its creatures dominated is a problem for Ichorid?

Because with 3/1s I have the choice to get in and start doing damage (and clearing the way after the first trade), or to sit back and let my Ichorids die and accumulate Zombies. Bloodghast seems terrible at doing both.

[godryk]

I haven't been able yet to read the oracle errata on Bloodghast saying: for the rest of the game you cannot use Ichorid.

[frogboy]

I haven't been able yet to read the oracle errata on Bloodghast saying: for the rest of the game you cannot use Ichorid.

Few lists play both. I don't believe I've seen any lists that play 4 Ichorid x Bloodghast; splits are in favor of Bloodghasts. Anusien's original question has not yet been answered.

[Parcher]

Bloodghast players might actually want to get dominated in creature combat, since it's the only way for them to get Zombie tokens.

Of course, they have to hope that the Zoo player is stupid enough to not burn his own guys to remove Bridges. But that's another scenario.

[Anusien]

Bloodghast players might actually want to get dominated in creature combat, since it's the only way for them to get Zombie tokens.

Of course, they have to hope that the Zoo player is stupid enough to not burn his own guys to remove Bridges. But that's another scenario.

Yeah, but Bloodghast does that pretty poorly, because it means that you do 2 a turn while making a Zombie for every turn you can play a land. Ichorid seems much much better than Bloodghast in the Zoo matchup, which is a big strike against Bloodghast.

I haven't been able yet to read the oracle errata on Bloodghast saying: for the rest of the game you cannot use Ichorid.

You missed it. It's right there in invisible ink next to the "Minimum deck size is 60 cards" rule and right after the Oracle text of all the cards in the deck that are better than both.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, anybody tried boarding Blood Ghast and SBing him in for Breakthrough in the aggro or aggro-control match up along with an Eternal Witness and Dakmor Salvage? I can't justify this guy MD if all he does is cut down on outlets, dredgers and draw, but maybe we can strategically abuse Bloodghast over removal for game 2 when we've got to churn thru' Crypt/Relic/Trap etc?

[Anusien]

Who boards Crypt/Relic and not Leyline for the mirror?

[jimirynk]

Um. Breakthrough doesn't require another land. And, depending on what you are CoVing, it may not require another rainbow land either.

I'm not saying that tapping for blue mana is the only justification for playing CC; its activated ability is clearly the primary reason. You did not address this.

With only 1 CC and no CS a Breakthough does nothing the hand is a mulligan.
A one land CC can't be activated, their has been addressed.

Not saying you made that up, but please elaborate. I can think of plenty 1-land CC hands which are keepable, albeit not optimal. Double CC hands + a Dredger seem acceptable (albeit not optimal), and yours odds of having a dredger are better than 50%.

Again a one land CC hand is ONLY keepable with a CS..
A double CC hand can get their game 1 but is usually shakey.
But games 2/3 you need a rainbow land, no exceptions.

If 14 is the correct number, then why would you go on to say that it isn't the choice you would make? It either is the correct number (assuming you would choose what you believe to be correct) or it isn't.

14 is the safest number, to run but the most important part of your lands is to have colored mana.
If you want to have the best chance game2/3 run as many rainbow lands as possible.
Slow dredging with imp/tribe and playing grudge from your hand/grave is 100% the game plan games 2/3, except vs. leyline/combo.

Good for you. It sounds like your mind was already made up before you asked the question. Say that next time, so you don't waste our time.

I change my list all the time but I do it through extreme testing not on constant lists being post from people that suck.
I'm posting my list and giving insight because I've tested, posted and done better than anyone else on this thread.

If you run 15 lands, you can run 4 Coliseum and 11 rainbow lands. Coliseum makes you mulligan a little bit more, but it's benefits are ridiculous. Plus, activating Coliseum guarantees you have another land anyway.

I would not run fewer than 15 lands; the need to have 2 lands to have resistance to Wasteland is pretty important.

15 is a tad over the top, I no more lands is good but, you have to cut other cards. I'm fucking around with numbers like tireless tribe doesn't need to be a 4 of md but games 2/3 it should be. Since they are the best cards in my board to run MD they sit MD, this improves the aggro matchup anyway so im not complaining.

Its hard to play around LD correctly especially when the LD is backed with daze.
Game2/3 you really need a colored mana throughout the game so hopefully you have 2 colored mana or they hopefully waste your CC.

[jimirynk]

I haven't been able yet to read the oracle errata on Bloodghast saying: for the rest of the game you cannot use Ichorid.

Bloodghast wants the deck tuned to abuse them, so they're lackluster just tossed in a 75 as a 1-2 of.

[BreathWeapon]

Who boards Crypt/Relic and not Leyline for the mirror?

Ugh, I meant the match (i.e Zoo with an even distribution of Crypt/Relic/Trap etc); thanks for catching the typo.

[Zappa]

I've reached 100 gold fishing run on my notebook, and comparing it to the older, older, basic shell I used to run. The one with 3 Dread Returns, 1 Sphinx/Sage, and 1 Zealot...

With 2 DR package and no Zealot, I notice that our dredging is much better, and I also mulligan far less compared to the older build. However, 1 thing that got me thinking is that lack of turn 2 kill. Granted like someone here before said, that all flame-kin does for you is prevent them from top decking Wrath of God, right after you've amassed an army of tokens and ripped apart their hand.

But I don't know, how do you, with the 2 DR package with no zealot main, feel about the loss of turn 2 kills?

For those of you that's running 13-14 lands, and opened with a hand with no Imp or Tribe, don't you find wasteland a significant blow?

EDIT: The Tireless Tribes sure helped actually, and very great addition. I very much support the card as well. I see many games where I could use it to maintain defense as I build up on tokens.

[jimirynk]

But I don't know, how do you, with the 2 DR package with no zealot main, feel about the loss of turn 2 kills?

I run a Sphinx and a Iona.
DR an Iona on turn 2 stops them from topdecking wrath.
I do sometimes miss FKZ but often It would have just been winmore.
Iona is the best turn 2 DR against combo unless it would have been a lethal swing IMO.

[frogboy]

But I don't know, how do you, with the 2 DR package with no zealot main, feel about the loss of turn 2 kills?

Mind Twisting them, getting a 14/14, and eight zombies is a turn 2 kill.

[BreathWeapon]

Mind Twisting them, getting a 14/14, and eight zombies is a turn 2 kill.

Seriously, this, Zealot/Sage was the worst thing to ever happen to this deck; you guys are pissing away MD slots for nothing - stop it.

[Dark Ritual]

What frogboy said is correct. If you mind twist your opponent and get a 20/20 GGT or something huge you should win. I have yet to see how with 8 2/2's and a huge dude when they have nothing in hand but maybe a goyf on board how they win on turn 3 when they cannot wrath. Sphinx/sage is really situational; the only reason it was used in the first place was for turn 1 wins when combined with FKZ to dredge your entire library and swing with a ton of dudes. Sadistic Hypnotist is only subpar when you're facing aggro decks which make up a small portion of the field when there is countertop all around along with landstill. ANT cannot win with an empty hand unless they're comboing out and they search for tendrils via LED + infernal tutor at which point you should scoop unless the tendrils isn't lethal which seems unlikely.

@jimirynk: How good has Iona been for you? I'm interested personally.

[jimirynk]

@jimirynk: How good has Iona been for you? I'm interested personally.

You therapy your oppenent then DR it and it should alway be gg.
It also doesn't require bridges to get you the win.

[Anusien]

Mind Twisting them, getting a 14/14, and eight zombies is a turn 2 kill.

In what matchup do you need to kill them on turn 2? It's not worth making the deck more inconsistent. The whole point of not running LED is being slightly slower and more consistent.

It's pretty freaking hard to actually get 20 on the board on turn 2 anyway.

[Zappa]

True, true... when they're overwhelmed with so much threats and no cards in hand, they can't really do anything else. I guess I was just thinking about how this deck as described, is only a turn slower than LED version. But what I was looking at was the turn it kills, which is actually 3-4. I was just looking at numbers and didnt really factor that into consideration that he has a big guy and an army of tokens grinding their axe waiting for their turn .

[4eak]

@ jimirynk

With only 1 CC and no CS a Breakthough does nothing the hand is a mulligan.
A one land CC can't be activated, their has been addressed.

I would keep a hand with CC/Break/GGT in plenty of cases. DDD twice and Break will win you the game. It isn't perfect, but it isn't useless either. You might need to be more careful with your generalizations. Your "Just throwing it out there" claim wasn't very accurate at all.

Do realize: I am not saying 1 land CC hands are optimal. Far from it. I'm simply saying there are more keepable hands than you recognize. Additionally, you are missing the general argument posed for CC, which has little to do with 1-land CC hands; the point is that you run enough land that you will have good odds of seeing 2 total to activate. Go ahead and despise the hands you mull because it only had a CC, but you need to recognize the plethora of games won on the back of its activations.

For someone so concerned about his mana-base, you don't seem to do anything to improve upon it. You even went down to 13 land, which, despite the number of rainbows you played, didn't really have any better odds than the 15-land manabase of seeing rainbow lands, and it was even more fragile in the face of mana-denial.


@ Iona

The card is underrated. Even against multi-colored decks, cutting off a primary color is very powerful. As jimirynk said, one of the appealing qualities of the card is how little is relies upon Bridge. If I get use out of Bridges in games 2 and 3, I'm usually going to win anyways; but for games where I don't get to use them, having such a powerful DR target which isn't dependant on tokens is splendiferous. I can only recall losing one game when I got Iona into play, but I would have lost that game with any DRtarget.






peace,
4eak

[Jayzonious]

I've been reading the thread and I'm unsure what "DDD" stands for? It would be great if someone could enlighten me so I can continue to follow this thread and better understand the strategy!