I think that is one DR target too many. Its pretty much Iona versus Fkz and I am leaning in favor of Iona personally. There are times where you can get out a Fkz and some zombies on turn 2 and it would just not be lethal. A turn 2 Iona can just end the game.Originally Posted by jimirynk
Iona is this deck acts as a ghetto counter spell giving such in all in deck answers to spells/topdecks, but Iona does nothing vs. a resolved threat.
FKZ helps vs. threats in play.
If I can get Iona in play every turn 2 I'll love it.
But those games that make it to turn 5-6 DR a sphinx/Iona does nothing.
Why is Iona better than Sadistic Hypnotist?
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Just from looking at it Iona is a 7/7 Angel that makes it so your opponent can't play anything and wins the game. While the Sadistic makes them discard if you sac creatures but is only a 2/2 ???? So you dread Iona you get a Angel and some zombies but if you dread Sadistic you get him and some zombies that you have to sac. Dunno both seem good but Iona seems to be very powerful just by herself
I thought about adding both mainboard cause I agree with what every one says Flame kin really doesn't do that much
Sadistic Hypnotist empties hands and generates tokens, acting as a DR-able Cabal Therapy machine. Its a good card. I've been playing with both Iona and Sadistic in my SB.
There are several cases where I prefer Iona.Why is Iona better than Sadistic Hypnotist?
- Sadistic Hypnotist requires Bridges where Iona doesn't.
- Sadistic requires a strong chain-dredge and Iona doesn't as much.
- Iona is better in the face of GY hate because of fewer requirements.
- Sadistic Hypnotist isn't perfectly effective against Top/Brainstorm protected Hands, and it doesn't stop topdecking or negate the full value of CA generation, Iona does.
- Iona protects itself (or is capable of it). (Activate Sadistic->StP in response)
- Iona's ability doesn't use the stack, which can make a difference. There are no responses to your choice of color.
- Iona hits harder.
Neither card deals very well with what is already on the board. They are similar solutions to decks that keep a lot of cards in hand obviously. Both DR targets are quite good against control and combo. In a GY-hating (anti-bridge) environment where Brainstorm/Top rule, and true CA doesn't always, I think Iona could be favored.
peace,
4eak
While it does not outright put to board position to your a favor, a 7/7 body goes a long way...
Early on, Iona is great against almost every deck. The only thing that sucks is if you're playing against some form of blue based control and run into a STP. But her strengths outweigh the weaknesses I'd say.
I play in an aggro heavy meta, so I've used Caldera Helion as a Firespout (Tribal aggro need 3 Lords to survive it) and it's been pretty good.
EDIT:
Right now I'm running 3 DR targets(FKZ,Witness, FlexSpot), but I've been dying to cut it to 2. Any suggestions for someone without Iona?
Honestly, running Hypnotist over Iona is pretty sub-optimal, if you're resolving Dread Return then you've probably Therapied their hand to clear the way. Iona is likely the only DR target I'd ever run personally, because she does what everything else can't do: stop them from top decking the win/answer. That and a 7/7 Flyer is frickin' huge by itself.
I think I vomited a little in my mouth when I read 3 DR targets ...
I tend to think FKZ is pretty unneeded overall - Witness is the only DR target that I really would be hesitant to not have somewhere in my 75. If you're living in an aggro heavy meta why not just run Chosen main deck? Assuming you have one in your board you'll free up a SB slot as well.
As for Iona, she's great but overrated. For many decks it's the case that one color primarily provides a win condition while another has everything that can deal with Iona. Obviously you can't stop both classes of cards. I run her in my board, but I don't think she's necessary for the main deck and I would say not having her in the board may be sub optimal but is more of a personal preference than a mistake.
awesome
What are you even getting back when you DR a Witness?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Sideboard hate, Cephalid Coliseum. I think it's a holdover from the LED version where you'd get back LED to cast Deep to dredge deeper.
It was an attractive option to me to get back Reverent Silence or something equally janky to beat multiple Ghostly Prisons, but likely you just won't get to dredge that deep.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
If you're casting Dread Return, why do you need sideboard hate or Cephalid Coliseum? Further, if you do need Coliseum, why don't you get Sphinx so you don't have to invest more mana?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Forest
Witness is kinda like Sage to me. Usually she gets me Breakthough or Coliseum as an uncounterable dredge/discard outlet. On occasion I've used her to return Therapy, so you'd get an extra use. Hypnotist can demolish a full hand, yes, but double Therapy can hurt pretty bad too.
So abstractly, she could be considered a flexible in between of Sage and Hypno.
Obviously she's not the same as Hypno, as he can force discard through a Counterbalance or Chalice, but you get the idea.
@Iona: Haven’t really tested using her yet but I agree with sunshine that she is a wee bit over-rated. Either you name white or she gets killed. She can still be bounced though, she is virtually a 7/7 flying beater that can’t be killed easily. She does have merits against mono-color decks and combo decks, and this, for me warrants her a slot, but only in the sb. I still like playing FKZ simply because he gives you a chance to end games immediately, if he can’t more or less he’d strike in for 12 to 15 damage at least which is enough to probably end the game in a few waves of ichorid and ghast beats. Also along with reveillark I’ve won countless games by larking out a lethal GGT and FKZ without bridges.
@EW: She is flexible but with my testing she doesn’t do very well as she is in theory. Usually when we chain dredge and return something we’ve already played a land and chances are we are tapped out due to either playing a breakthrough, study or activating a coliseum. Given that, returning a EW we usually don’t have a land drop or open mana available to invest for a breakthrough or coliseum on the turn she is returned. You still have to pass the turn, this opens up counters and wastelands which may prevent you from using the card you got back from EW. LEDless have more mana sources available in the long run and not a lot of mana available at one particular turn like LED does making witness less effective than she is ideally. Sage is quicker and more straightforward thus more efficient, Witness is more flexible, this probably is a matter of preference actually. I personally have both available and interchange them once in a while.
OT: I finally have bloodghasts, and I’ve already incorporated them in my list and I’ve a played a fair share of games with them. Here’s my draft list and my insights:
Next Level Dredge (Bloodghast Dredge)
Lands 15
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gemstone Mine
Sorcery 13
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
Enchantments 4
4 Bridge from Below
Instant 2
2 Darkblast
Creatures 26
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Ichorid
3 Blooghast
Sideboard:
SB: 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
-I only play 2 Paradises because I only have 2 so far, It’s hella hard to find them these days, and they’re hella expensive. I plan to play only 3 though because I don’t wanna find myself with two paradises in my opening grip, 3 seems to be just enough but I still have to test them. I may play the 3rd paradise in place of the 4th coliseum or 3rd Gemstone Mine, although I'm leaning on the 4th coliseum at the moment
-Bloodghasts are AWESOME. How I managed to fit them in my list seems to be good since in playing the deck, it was balanced and didn't seem to be lackluster in a particular department. Bloodghasts play well in the list, seriously. They help make FKZ returns more lethal early. They also increase the deck’s resiliency in the mid-game. They also make your midgame aggro game more solid. Definitely an awesome addition. I play 3 because I have only 3 so far. They seem sufficient enough though. The deck plays smoothly enough as it is now and I think bloodghasts are only complimentary creatures in this shell and thus doesn’t require a full playset in a list to be efficient. I am thinking of playing the 4th ghast in exchange of the 4th narcomoeba or 3rd gemstone mine. I chose to replace a narc since narcs in the opening grip opens up mulligans maybe 3 is enough for this; I chose mine though since its my 15th land and I usually play just 14 lands, it seems counter-intuitive but I’ll have to see what slot is worth replacing or are 3 ghasts enough. What do you guys think?
-With the addition of bloodghasts, I lost a reveillark and a dread return. There are games that I often should’ve won had I had those two in my deck at the time, especially dread return. I’m finding a slot for it, if ever I stay at 3 bloodghasts I may replace the gemstone mine with my 3rd dread return. I have to test it extensively, but what do you guys think?
-Overall, I like my list so far, I may tinker with the changes I'm planning above just to see if it does well. So far, fitting in another paradise is my utmost priority. I'd like to know what you guys constructively think about my list, comments are welcome.
Last edited by bum_man; 11-21-2009 at 08:48 AM.
Why so serious?
Anything and Everything. I've recurred Coliseums/Breakthrough/Careful Study to have her function as a Sage/Sphinx, PImp and Tribe, Land - especially if I'm running Wonder and want to grab a USea, or Paradise if you happen to run Bloodghast or just land #2/#3 to play your dredged creatures, Therapy for extra plays, etc. Of course she's gets even better post board.
The "you're resolving DR so you've already won" argument really doesn't hold that much water. Especially in the second and third games there are plenty of decks that are capable of disabling our Bridges or PtEing our Ichorids. It's also possible that you would want to regrow a card like Firestorm to make sure you don't get owned when the Zoo player across the table draws the Crypt he was floating with Sylvan Library since all your permanent discard outlets were exiled or bolted, for example. Regrowing Firestorm against a board of goblins is some good times too.If you're casting Dread Return, why do you need sideboard hate or Cephalid Coliseum? Further, if you do need Coliseum, why don't you get Sphinx so you don't have to invest more mana?
awesome
My sideboard right now.
4 Chain of vapor
4 Ancient grudge
2 Ray of revelation
4 Unmask
1 Iona/Chosen
I might switch to this.
4 Chain of vapor
4 Unmask
4 Leyline of the void
3 Ancient grudge
Thoughts opinions?
What are you doing differently?
Firestorm should definately be in every sideboard. It's good against swarm, hatebears, while you discard what you need in graveyard, and it's the only discard effect you'd have that can't be countered, apart from eot discard
Why does uncounterable matter vs. swarm?
Unless your talking about folk.
How are people running grudge and firestorm and siding it all in vs folk?
Are you siding out the combo?
Also I found their to be no room in the board for storm do to me wanting to play 4 unmask to fight vs. ravenous trap.
I'm not saying I'm right, just want info.
Is leyline just randomly good for you or do you expect to face decks that it will have large effect on? I agree on firestorm being extremely effective as it can also send damage to the dome if need be. My list and SB at the moment( expecting to play in a meta full of zoo with a smattering of combo)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel( a necessary evil for me, running 4 coliseums draws me multiples way to often, may just be my luck)
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB:
4 Firestorm
2 Duress
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Wispmare
1 Ray of Revelation
I cant see running COV over mare/ray as answers for leyline/propaganda. Bouncing stuff when not playing LED is risky business since most decks that run leyline will be able to cast it at some point, and they run other grave hate to slow us down until they can cast it. and relying on therapy to yank it after bouncing it is wishful thinking too in my opinion. Running chosen main has proved worthwhile, gaining all that life is good against any deck.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
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