[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[NecroYawgmoth]

Null Rod would be better than Shaman, because it shut's down Relic/Crypt/EE and the likes of Combostuff and SDT before they can use it...

but Shaman has the same Problem as Rod... you can't Dredge into it, and need it in your opening 7, that makes it somewhat worse... DR him is irrelevant, if they have Crypt/Relic, cuz Grudge would do the same thing then...


YawG

[SlopeeJ]

Here is the list I ran at a 15 or so tourney last night and took first beating a burn, countertop and white stax deck. It is 61 one cards so I would like to cut one and maybe add a land so I need to some opinions. I also have a might need and willing to lose towards the bottom. I know what some would say to cut Iona but I can't she is just to good and with the extra creatures turn 2/3 will happen a lot more often. I just slow play with Ichorids/Bloodghast dredging little as possible while getting a few zombies here and there. Then sacking getting Iona with more zombies for the win if I haven't already won with Ichorids Bloodghasts

61 Cards Main deck

13 Land

4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gemstone Mine

30 Creatures

4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghasts
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona

7 Discard
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

10 Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed
2 Golgari Thug

18 Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

SB
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Whispmare
2 Ray of Revalition
1 Angel of Despair
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Unmask

For my sideboard I would like to cut either Angel or Woodfall. Maybe cut a enchantment hate for an artifact hate or maybe add one of each for 5/5 split. Might try force of will or firestorms for the unmasks but I would like to try out unmask. I don’t think 4 artifact hate is enough especially when I can only use 1-2 a game.


Might Need
1 Tireless Tribe
1 RainBow Land
1-2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dread Return
1 Something Awesome

Willing to Lose(Combination not all)
1-2 Golgari Thug
1 Breakthrough
1 Careful Study

[johanessen]

(...)
Edit: Shaman would've been awesome before Relic, man I wish I would've thought of that before it didn't matter.

What about goblin vandal?

[SlopeeJ]

I don't see either of those working I think the only one's you can run are ancient grudge and Ingot Chewer, unless I'm missing something. Ingot costs one mana and you can dread return him getting zombies and taking out an artifact. Ancient grudge you play from your hand if able and then you have it again in your graveyard for one mana.

I won 2 games last night with Ingot, one was on the draw I played him turn 1 and got their crypt and another game I dredged return ingot getting his 3/3 body and zombies killing another artifact. Another reason why I like Ingot is because of countertop, there is a lot in my meta and he gets through

[NecroYawgmoth]

SlopeeJ, you only listed 12 Spells in your deck Oo



YawG

[SlopeeJ]

oopsis, I had it all formatted and crap with word then when I posted of course it lost all the formatting, should be

4 bridge
4 cabal
4 breakthrough
4 careful study
2 dread return


What do people think about cutting breakthough to 3 mainboard????

[NecroYawgmoth]

...my list looks similiar to yours, but I rely more on Iona because she is really underrated, and fucking nuts..., and I don't like Careful Study, I never liked it in LED-Dredge and I tested it in non-LED Dredge, but I'm still unimpressed... The only positive thing about it is IMO, that you can pay it with Coliseum...


4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage

////

4 Unmask
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
2 Ray of Revelation (maybe +1)
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus (maybe -1)


YawG

[BreathWeapon]

Yeah, Ingot Chewer is a great card, the only problem tho' is he eats Stifle hard.

@Yawg, I think Oboro is better than 2nd Dakmor.

[SlopeeJ]

that is true but you can say that about a lot of cards. That is also why I run the split and he still gets you zombies and can be dredged returned if really needed, but I think the 1 mana is really important especially if your only running 13-14 lands.

What do you think about my list? Can I get away with 13 lands and you got me curious about cutting the thugs because when I look at it on paper I really don't need them (or both)

I would really like to cut a breakthrough but not sure if that is a good idea so might just have to go for careful study or 1-2 thugs for a land and to get down to 60 cards

I love Iona also and 2 would be the nuts but that might be a little over kill hahaha

[NecroYawgmoth]

Oboro is a very strange card, and I didn't know that it existed, until now... xD

I never tested with only 1 Salvage, because 1 is somewhat random (thats the same reason why I play 2 Ionas =P)

Isn't Oboro much better, when you play with Studies, cuz of its ability to produce U ???

What are your testing results with 1 Salvage, and (more important) with Oboro...


YawG

[BreathWeapon]

Oboro is a very strange card, and I didn't know that it existed, until now... xD

I never tested with only 1 Salvage, because 1 is somewhat random (thats the same reason why I play 2 Ionas =P)

Isn't Oboro much better, when you play with Studies, cuz of its ability to produce U ???

What are your testing results with 1 Salvage, and (more important) with Oboro...


YawG

Well, I've played with 1xDakmor Salvage more than I've played with 2+, I love/hate Dakmor Salvage because it's great game 1 and it's a "pipe dream" game 2. I love Oboro, it's Undiscovered Paradise 5+, which reduces the need for Dakmor Salvage 2+ and it casts Breakthrough/Careful Study and Chain of Vapor like a champ.

Right now, I'm messing with some really fucked up lists;

"Powder Burns"

MD

4 Serum Powder
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Deep Analysis
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return


Honestly, that makes the current LED Ichorid lists look like shit and I'm not even joking, turn 1 Paradise , LED, Sac LED, Flash DA, Dredge, Flash DA, Dredge and return Paradise to hand is disgusting.

Game 2 is fascinating, because I've come up with a clever boarding plan.

Ok, SB in 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Dakmor Salvage and 4 Shambling for 4 Breakthrough, 4 Oboro, Palace in the Cloud and 4 Undiscovered Paradise. The idea is simple, fuck Crypt, if they aggressively mull for Crypt we have so many Dredgers that we'll just grind our way thru it. If they don't play Crypt, then we just explode all over their face. Game 3, we just board in Unmask.

The alternative is just to board in Pithing Needle and/or Force of Will game 2, but that's not as cool. Boarding in 4 Gold Lands and 8 creature outlets for Powder, LED, Analsyis is another idea.

[Zappa]

Can anyone give some advise, or examples on how you would you handle the enchantment Nigh Soil? I understand what to do against Crypt, Relic or Leyline. But a couple days ago, I faced a jank deck that uses this enchantment. I am pretty sure the person running the card will be frequenting with it.

Do you:

A) Dredge big hoping to come across Ray of Revelation ASAP? But in the meanwhile put your main dredgers and Ichorids in danger of being removed from game.

B) Dredge small, chance of hitting Ray of Revelation is smaller but doesn't let them hit your dredgers or Ichorids much.

C) Play out the deck as if you're playing a random aggro deck, just top decking and try to find Ray of Revelation that way and or via Careful Study and Breakthrough?

I understand that no one really plays that enchantment, but someone in my play group started using it. So I was wondering on what's the best way to fight through it. I went with choice A, but that came with a huge consequences.

Since the card is being used in my group, any advise on fighting it? This is my list, if it would help...

4 Cephalid Colliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Theraphy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe


Sideboard
3 Unmask
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Voidstone Gargoyle
3 Darkblast

[Pltnmngl]

I'm also interested in hearing how some players would handle Night Soil...

[SlopeeJ]

I think it all depends on what else is on the battlefield and what turn it is etc. If you dredge and you have more then 2 creatures you should be fine cause your build has a lot of creatures?? You have answers such a Ray of Revelation though I also like whispmare so you can add another sideboard spot for that getting rid of one of your dread return targets. (Gargoyle imo) If they have a fatty goyf hitting you obviously you can't try to topdeck it for more then 1-2 turns.

You have 4 cabal therapy mainboard and 3 unmasks in the sb these seem like good answers turn 1-2 buying you time to get dredging. I would change your darkblasts to Needles and they would also work (also to crypt/relic)

You are right if you don't have answers in your hand you need to find answers either through careful study, breakthrough or dredging. Best answer would be to have a whispmare or Ray in your opening hand. To me that card doesn't really seem that scary but all depends on what other graveyard hate they have and other threats you need to worry about. You can mulligan into one of your enchantment hates??

Answers

4 cabal therapy
3 unmask
3 rays
3 Needle
1-2 Whispmare
1 primas (maybe) I say have Iona mainboard naming green seems like his deck would be owned if you can get it...

10+ outs seem pretty good to me and I think it is a valid question which can be implied to pretty much any enchantment.

Zappa I just read your post a couple pages back and seems like you played it right. Only thing I don't like is no dredge target main (as kicks4 22 said) and I don't think the darkblast are that great unless their is a creature really stopping you such as jailer. Like you said you were killing your own bridges while he was also getting rid of your creatures. From your post it seems like that is his only graveyard hate and I think the outs you have a fine. I would also say test out whispmare, I think the evoke hate cards are awesome. One mana and you get zombies, plus last resort you can dread return back.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, does any one else consider Ancient Grudge a bad Pithing Needle? I've been getting Ancient Grudge Spell Snared and Stifled a lot, and sometimes it's hard to get to G mana to cast it. If we're just trying to stop Crypt/Relic, reactively casting Pithing Needle does the same thing and it stops any future activations.

Also, if any body is up for testing my list directly above I'd appreciate some feedback.

[SlopeeJ]

Ok, does any one else consider Ancient Grudge a bad Pithing Needle? I've been getting Ancient Grudge Spell Snared and Stifled a lot, and sometimes it's hard to get to G mana to cast it. If we're just trying to stop Crypt/Relic, reactively casting Pithing Needle does the same thing and it stops any future activations.

Also, if any body is up for testing my list directly above I'd appreciate some feedback.

Well for one can you even stifle Ancient Grudge, I don't think you can? You are casting Ancient Grudge both times and Stifle says An activated ability has a "Cost: Effect" format. Look for the colon. A triggered ability starts with "when", "whenever", or "at".


Second I know Ingot can get stifled but he can't get spellsnared but you still get zombies. As for the mana 8-10 Rainbow lands isn't enough? I have a hard time with needle because you can name the wrong one and also most people in my meta run a 2/2 split or something like that. Not to mention you have to draw it...

[SMR0079]

My friend doesn't understand that Breakthrough is the most broken of all your discard outlets, and wants to cut one.

Please help me convince him that he's insane.

Right now he's stuck on playing with Imp & Tribe and some amount of Studys

His reasoning is he always wants a discard creature turn one, and says he doesn't like having to dump his whole hand with breakthrough.

I take the position that both Breakthrough and Study are strictly better than Tribe, especially if you are running the Imp for your Ichorids.

[BreathWeapon]

My friend doesn't understand that Breakthrough is the most broken of all your discard outlets, and wants to cut one.

Please help me convince him that he's insane.

Right now he's stuck on playing with Imp & Tribe and some amount of Studys

His reasoning is he always wants a discard creature turn one, and says he doesn't like having to dump his whole hand with breakthrough.

I take the position that both Breakthrough and Study are strictly better than Tribe, especially if you are running the Imp for your Ichorids.

Yes and no, Imp and Tribe are 4x mandatory between MD and SB to fight against Crypt/Relic with out diluting the deck with hate, but Study is definitely "extra" draw and shouldn't be compared to the outlets or Breakthrough - it's more like a Cephalid Coliseum that doesn't tap for mana.

[SMR0079]

Cutting study for tribe is a possibility, but NEVER cut Breakthrough.

What's the bare minimum for dredgers you can run? I say 10 with 2 thugs, not counting Dakmmor. What say you all?

[BreathWeapon]

Cutting study for tribe is a possibility, but NEVER cut Breakthrough.

What's the bare minimum for dredgers you can run? I say 10 with 2 thugs, not counting Dakmmor. What say you all?

4/4/2/1 is bare minimum, the 3rd Thug really does wonders for consistency tho'. Generally, I hate cutting dredgers, because 1 dredger is all you need to actually keep a hand.