Splitting between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in a Storm-based deck makes meOriginally Posted by Gocho
. Once a Tempo Thresh-player lost to me (with ANT), beeing unable to give his Nimble Mongoose Threshold for two rounds, because of holding two "useless" REBs in hand. As if anyone is going to set Meddling Mage on Pyroblast or plays Extirpate on it, against any of these two matchups.
Greetz, K1LO
Last edited by K1LO; 11-22-2009 at 05:27 PM.
K1LO aka Johnny, member of Team Super People. Have fun watching TOPFKINO on YouTube / vimeo!
TURNIERÜBERSICHT des FSH Ludwigsburg und UNITHEKLEgacy/StandardTHEKLE - See you there!
how important is the main decked answer to CB?
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
That largely depends on your metagame and then your individual matchups in a room. 2 out of the 3 lists that did well at the Dutch Championships didn't play any solution at all maindeck (sb 3 KGrips if I remember).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
That's correct, even tho CB was the deck most present at the site.
This sunday I played the hybrid to a 3-1 record ending sixth due to tiebreakers (top4).
My only loss was vs solidarity. I have problems in how to play the match against this. (I had to mull both games because of 0 lands)
Yeah, playing against Solidarity is pretty though. I've played the matchup a lot (actually against other Tendrills combo, but that's almost the same). You need to make sure you are fast enough. You don't want to give them the option to combo in response to a Chant or a win. So you should win turn 1-3 or 1-4 on the play no matter what. If it's going to be unprotected, so be it.
By the way, who played Solidarity?
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
@waikiki: Hmmm, losing to Solidarity with 6 Chant effects, you must have just had terrible draws. I am guessing you had to mull into keepable hands rather than good ones since the deck was giving you nothing. That blows, but I never found this to be a tough matchup. I think Spring Tide is a lot harder since they have so many ways to find High Tide and are a little more consistent in their combo (and I have seen them go off on turn 2).
Against Solidarity game 1 just look for any hand with Top, Chant, land and work on sculpting a good hand or clearly any savagely aggressive hand with protection. Just wait for the High Tide and Chant them in response. If they counter the first Chant and you have a second you can let the High Tide resolve then Chant them in response to the next spell they play but I wouldn't, I would just Chant them again with Tide on the stack, these decks do crazy things when that shit resolves so just don't give them a chance! In this matchup I much prefer to wait for them to make a move rather than vice versa. I would rather watch them expend their resources into double Chant and then safely combo out the next turn or so rather than be the one to combo out, but it really depends on the strength of your hand, also, don't be afraid to hold back Mystical with Top in play or even MT for Chant on turn 1 just to show them you got something.
Especially if you already have a Chant in hand it makes them think you don't have another and this can have 2 effects: 1) they play right into you expecting just a single chant and you ravage them or 2) it buys you a lot of extra turns while they try and setup with Chant effects and you get to sculpt the perfect hand with Top/cantrips. This is another great matchup where Swarm shines from the board! If they don't force it ... thats basically game unless you really have nothing to do and they have enough time to Cryptic Command in back to your hand then combo off.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
wait solidarity out?
Sorry Pulp_Fiction, but that sounds like a realy bad play. The more you wait, the more lands i get to play, and the better my outs to combo off are.
Actually, the only games i lost against ANT and other combodecks is when they are to fast for me to handle. When i have the resources, and we start to battle on the stack, solidarity wins allmost every time. So i totaly agree with Bahamuth on this point.
And about waiting for the hight tide. If your opponent play tide, not in response to you going off, or your chant, its probably a pretty bad solidarity player.
dudes i would like your help
i have the deck but i never sideboarded or actually played a lot with how do you side?
i'm playing kim kluck's list....
thanxs
3 out of 3 that made T8 did not play bounce/Grp main.
Team Nijmegen
Yes, effectively Chant is quite useless against a (good) Solidarity player because he will be able to leave it on the stack an proceed comboing out your ass. Chant may be effective only when he's low on resouces (i.e., in response to an untap effect with him without the Fow), but in general if the ANT player attempts to play the control role and to stop Solidarity, he either hasn't understood really much who has to attack and who has to stop the other, and will lose.
Perhaps double chant can do something if played at the right moment ( which, i guess, it's when the Solidarity player is resetting/turnabouting lands or when he's drawing..or in any case when he's short on mana to start comboing again ignoring the Chant). But at the time you had double chant, it would have been better to start comboing by yourself.
@the absence of Bounce/Grip: i think a traditional list of ANT w/Duresses can allow itself to not run that slot. With a list ala Pulp Fiction's one, Counterbalance can't be preventively discarded because of the presence of only Chants as protection spells, so i think that slot is kinda needed in that list to not completely roll over to Counterbalance/Trinisphere/(a bit less)Chalice game 1.
@The PFH: I already asked this question but perhaps no one listened to it, but I'd really like if anyone of you is missing Wipe Away. Not obviously because of CB, where Grip is totally superior, but those matchups with CounterTop where you're expecting your opponent to side in also some hate bears. I'm talking aboutProBant, UGW Threshold, and some builds of Landstill. Here I'm a bit perplex because i found myself in times when i board in KGrip and..wtf..on turn2 my oppo drops Gaddock-Fucking-Teeg or Meddling Mage on the table. And i hve no outs.
Considering this Sideboard, which is roughly emidln's one:
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
How would you side against , let's say, Pro Bant if you know he has CB but you also fear Teeg/Mage coming in? Without Wipe Away, I'm forced to bring in also Chain of Vapor or Slaughter Pact, diluting the combo core for more anti-hate.
Isn't possible to fit in a single Wipe Away for those matchups where you can't know what they'll side in?
I also find Goblin to be a tough matchup. It's stupid how much a fucking Thorn of Ametyst or a Pillar can give them that two turns to do lethal damage with Piledrivers. I know that for Combo Goblin should be a bye, but it's incredible how much they lucksack drawing the (few) pieces of hate they have.
Do you think it's good to keep Meditate in here ? It's too slow and risky. But , without it, also Doomsday gets invalidated. And AdNauseam is a gamble, since they can be fast as hell. The only decent thing is the IGG engine. I'm used to do -2 silences, -1 kgrip and to do +2 CoV and +1 Hurkyl's, but it seems that's not enough.
I don't know, it seems stupid decks wreck me all the time and the tough matchups are perfectly doable.
Last edited by Piceli89; 11-25-2009 at 09:44 AM.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Hey everyone,
This is kinda 'last minute' message ;) I've decided to play with ANT on tournament tomorrow morning, despite my last bad performance with it (lost to CB/TOP, win to SmallPox, lost to Reanimator, lost to Merfolks, drop). I believe I am capable to play it a bit better today, but I still need your help - on choosing the version I'd like to play. Here are 2 versions I am considering:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29415
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29432
They are destinated for playing in heavy blue (Merfolks, small amount of CB/TOP and Landstills) and aggro environment (Zoo and Goblins) with small amount of random deck (Dredge, RedBurn, Slivers, Reanimator and so on).
My main issues are blue matchups. How do you sideboard with them? What to take out and what to bring in? How does Volcanic Island+Pyroblast works agains Merfolks and their wastelands? Do you go off as soon as possible, or rather wait paying life for their attacks unless you have one or more protection (Orim's Chant?).
And by the way, what do you think about playing double Ad Nauseam? What is the purpose of it? Getting a slight chance to run the combo turn one? I found it limiting my resolved Ad Nauseam draws to 5 live, what sometimes is not enough to combo off lethal Tendrils due to lack of few cards (usually mana).
Additionally, if someone could summarize popular matchups sideboarding techniques I would really appreciate that! :)
Last edited by spankme; 11-28-2009 at 08:54 PM.
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Well, nobody responded, so I decided to play the version with 6 Chant effects as I seen it better against blue decks, and to play only one Ad Nauseam.
The results are nearly as bad as on previous tournaments, 2-1-3. Meeting four blue decks gave me 0-1-3 leaving me two wins with random burn decks.
Its unfair how they are suited well under any situation - Cursecatcher can stop Ad Nauseam without protection ant bite my lifes, and if I decide to wait and look for protection they get more and more counters. Volcanic Island + Pyroblast isnt even half that efficient as I hoped it to be due to wastelands.
I guess thats it for me and ANT. I've no idea how to win in my metagame with blue decks (Merfolks, Tresholds, CB/TOPs) so the tournaments are looking like pissing under the wind.
I'll have to drop ANT for something that either can smash blue or simply join it. It was great fun piloting such nice deck, tho.
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~~~ See most beautiful and unique painted cards alterations here
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I wouldn't let go so easily. ANT is the strongest deck in the format right now. I suggest you take a look at the Doomsday Hybrid lists that have been posted in this threat earlier. With 6 Chant 4 Top main and something like Xantid Swarm on the board, I'm pretty sure you can get a positive Merfolk matchup, if you practise with the deck enough. I'm pretty sure the only really bad matchup we have right now, is Dreadstill. With the Hybrid with the right list, we have put up test results that were about even against CB/Top and pretty positive against Tempo Thresh.
If your meta is really completely blue, you perhaps should drop this deck and smash them with Landstill or something. If it isn't, don't.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
That give me a question.
Bahamut, what cards go in anf out vs Blue Decks with the Hybrid list?
I understand that extra Doomsdays go in and ANT go out?
Seriously, read the thread. This has been discussed numerous times and you can find these SB answers one page back (pretty far I know). I really wish people would just stop posting unless they have some kind of a vague idea what combo is or how to play it. Let me set up a scenario, say you don't know how to play Belcher, look for the thread .... read, goldfish, repeat. THEN, based on prior experiences with the deck and some knowledge gained from reading and goldfishing, ask questions.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Dear Pulp Fiction,
I think you are missing few facts here.
First of all, the thread is long. Its long, so it is old. It is old, so the lists, sideboards, techs are not corresponding to live, changing meta, new cards, new decks, new trends. This is why people keep asking for lists/sideboards/techs against problematic matchups - because they want fresh answers that works today, not half year ago, before meta shifted with new expansion set.
Secong, the issues we have (personally, I do) are not tied to complete dorkness and lack of knowledge how to launch the combo against the wall. Believe me, I can win against with ANT against my wall with Darth Vader cinema poster 90:10 and even the Force wont help him. What I cant win is blue matchup, and this is something I can really simulate, even with Yoda poster wall facing Darth Vader. This is why we ask for things that can help, because we dont want to loose our standings, time and money to try out every single possible card in the format.
I thought this is what the forum and thread is for. And if everything has already been said in here, shouldnt it be closed?
With regards, spankme.
Dear Bahamuth,
My meta isnt entirely blue, but is blue heavy. Today's tournament took 18 people (we usually get around 24) and there were 4 merfolks, at least one CB/TOP, at least one Landstill, two burn decks, one loam, two burns, one goblins, two zoo's, and the rest I dont know.
Which particular list are you thinking of? What about sideboarding tech's against certain matchups?
~~~
~~~ Greatest painted alteration ever - pimp your deck :)
~~~ PM me or spankthespam [AT] gmail.com for commissions and questions
~~~ See most beautiful and unique painted cards alterations here
~~~
CB decks are always going to be a difficult matchup for ANT. Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Landstill, etc. are much more winnable, but can also be tough. The fact is, if you are in a really blue heavy metagame, it might be a long day for you.
When sideboarding against blue, it's important to just bring in a small number of key sideboard cards, but not take out too many cards that are important to the combo. I sometimes sideboard too much, and then it's difficult to get acceleration spells or business when you need it. Against CB, I usually replace some number of Duress with whatever extra Silences I have in the board, and bring in 3x Krosan Grips for 1 Duress, 1 IT, 1 Ponder or something like that. Against Merfolk or Tempo Thresh I bring in Silence for Duress and that's it.
Honestly, it gets old. The whole point of reading the thread is to figure out all the ins and outs of a deck. "Outdated" info is not outdated if it makes you a better combo player. Someone who knows how to play IGGY Pop or FT can easily pilot ANT, why, because they understand the nature of storm combo and how it works. Thats what you get from reading a thread. Insight into playing a deck regardless of when it was posted.
But anyway, this was taken from page .... 61, just 1 page back. Quite sad but not suprising :(
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
My list is simlar to Pulp's. My manabase is 2 Tundra 2 Sea 1 Island 1 Trop 9 Fetch with an additional Trop sb instead of the Plains. I also run Echoing Truth instead of Disenchant and and additional Cabal Ritual instead of te Empty the Warrens I think. Oh, I also play a 3th Ponder mainboard instead of the Grip. I don't like the Grip mainboard unless your meta is really CB Heavy.
Spankme, against Merfolk, Xantid Swarm shines. If there's that much Merfolk in your meta, I'd consider playing 4 SB. They basically can't win anymore if you drop it and don't have an extremely crappy hand.
Also, Landstill is pretty much a bye. They don't have anything against you. You're much better at finding protection than they are at finding Counters. Their Standstills are pretty bad. If you have a Top in play, Standstill is going to be good for you, because that means they won't speel up their clock or anything.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
I find this cycle amusing. At first, I would constantly repeat myself. Then I grew tired of it and Pulp_Fiction started repeating himself. After awhile, even he grew tired of it and now Bahamuth repeats himself. Who wants to bet when Bahamuth gets tired of repeating the same information? I have June 2010.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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