Quite a interesting list, Ive toyed with the idea of dropping white and going with just hand disruption as protection but i always figured that between their top and my own IGG id run into trouble.
Giving up green and going with purely wipeaway as splitsecond removal and ditching carpet of flowers and swarm in favor of more basic land and dark confidant+spell pierce
It certainly helps the mana base to include more basics. found myself wishing i played more of those quite often.
three thoughtseize and double ad nauseam does seem like a massive ammount of life loss. Although if you consider using thoughtseize is equal to flipping meditate/doomsday with Adn it doesnt seem that crazy. im not sold on double adn but seeing quite a few lists run two i supose that never has been a issue.
I can't really see the motivation of going UB instead of UBw, if it's not to add manabase consistency of for budget or card-lacking reasons; if it's the first case, having 2 islands and 1 swamp instead of the canonic 1 island and 1 swamp regular ANT packs doesn't seem a great deal to me..
Discard as the only protection won't carry the deck nowhere. First , because IGG is badly damaged not only against blue decks, but only against those that can recur, say, burn spells, Chants, even Extirpate or lifegain cards such as Stp. Second, discard can't do nothing against Countertop decks, who often hide their FoW or another counter on the top and they trick you taking it at the right moment; furthermore, discard is quite bad against decks with multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold.
Last but not least, if one wants to run protection in the form of discard, he surely won't do the job with only 4 duresses. Therefore, he'll be forced to pick Thoughtseize, which is bad in a list that relies quite heavily on winning via Ad Nauseam. Perhaps I could stand that configuration in multi-engine and greater threat density decks like NLS , but not in Minarro's list.
Unless he was expecting to face a meta of Chalice-based or Survival/Discard/non-blue-disruption (well, maybe 7 discards could in taking away CB) decks ONLY, Chant is such a huge protection that it's difficult to renounce to it. I'd be very eager to listen to his motivation, if he can join us or he's already on here.
-----------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets
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I think not playing Chants is a serious mistake. They solve every problem when going off, avoid cards like Spell Snare and Stifle, and are able to handle multiple hate cards. This has ben discussed a lot, but, unless it is for budget reasons, there really isn't any good reason to run discard effects over Chants + Discard, or Chants only.
The only time I played storm without Chants .. I lost bad, simply because they weren't there. I ran 4x Duress and 4x Pyroblast in the main in a build of DDFT and that was terrible. It hated on Counterbalance something fierce, but against every other hate card, it was terrible. This kind of protection is very limited, and based on the win condition you are using it can cause problems. Chants cover all the bases whether you are winning with DD, IGG, or AdN, and even if you are winning with just rituals or throwing your hand into an LED.
The list itself is fine, but there really isn't a good reason to run only discard. 4x Chant and 3-4 Duress is fine but I am not sure why you want to run only discard spells.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Quick question: Do you guys think it's possible to build a version with DD but without LED?
Or, should I ask it this way... I have 350€, is it possible to build a decent version of this deck?
I've been goldfishing countless hours with various lists and played many of them on MWS, but looking at the price of LED, I kinda lost my faith.
No. LED's the mana core of the deck, even and especially for DD shenanigans.
With 350 Euros?
4 LEDs-80 ( i took mine for 55, i think that's their price atm.. of course if you are taking eGay as a referrement, you can proceed building something else).
8 U-Fetches-90
1 USea-30 (they should be 2, however)
1 Tundra-25 (high)
1 Scrubland-20 (high)
2-3 Chrome Mox-30
4 Chant-40 (very high)
4 Mystical-12
4 Petal-12
1 Ad Nauseam-3
1 IGG-3
4 D Ritual-2
4 Cabal Ritual-2
4 Duress-2
4 Bstorm-6
4 Ponder-2
1 Tendrils-1
1-2 Island-i hope you have it..
1 Swamp-i hope you have it..
Tot. 360, excluding the sideboard. But i think you already have something.. i mean, BStorm and Ponder are a must have for every Legacy player. Also, if you buy all in block, i think you can get some discount.
The Source: your Source for Wallet Help!
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LED is like 23€ minimum here and no, I'm not looking at E-bay. The last time I checked prices there, I felt the urgent need to jump out of the window.
But it looks like I could borrow them from a buddy, so it's all cool it seems.
And no, I don't have any of the staples you mentioned, I've been playing LED-Less Ichorid for a long long time.
Thanks for your help!
You can buy some cards cheaper. I bought Ad nauseam for 0.25$ and you can use Silence in the place of Chants, they are cheaper and almost equal. If you search a little can find Chrome Mox at 8, etc...
Before I say anything I would like to mention that in no way am I condoning this but there has been an LEDless decklist on deckcheck making 3rd and 4th place in tournaments. I completely disagree with the list but here:
instant [22]
3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Pact of Negation
sorcery [14]
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
2 Tendrils of Agony
artifact [10]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
land [14]
2 Crystal Vein
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Angel's Grace
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extract
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
15 cards
This list seems very very strang to me but it may be cheaper then the traditional ANT builds.
The +2 USeas (60 euros) and the +2 Chrome Moxes (20 euros) that list requires balance the cost of the traditional one, which has +4 LEDs (70 is theirs on avg) and +4 Silence (12-15). Ah, wait! There are also 2 Mox Diamonds which are 15 each, if not more. But , on the other side, there are 3 fetches missing, i.e. 30 euros.
So, the list above costs like the traditional LED-with one, with the slight difference that this one sucks straight balls- i guess it's way better to invest of Chants and LED.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Jesus, how does that deck ever find Tendrils, even off AdN? Cantrips are not tutors >_<
Unless you pair 'em with Mystical Tutors.
But yeah, I don't like the deck either.
Me and my team have been playing this deck since ad nauseam was released and we've got some good results til now:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24206
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24190
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28425
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28427
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30609
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30947
Being LLBL (Lotacy) a weekly tournament of 50 people average and LCL (Liga Catalana) a monthly tournament 80 people average.
So the deck work's good, maybe not as LED version but there is a crucial advantadge this deck gives and is that is faster and it's prepared to face tempo threshold , a very common deck in our meta
Tempo Threshold? You're running 3 Ad Nauseams and 2 Tendrils, meaning your AdN will be a lot suboptimal.Pair this with the fact that you run thoughtseize, and than their Bolts and Goyfs will require few time in bringing you down to death.
Plus, to beat TT you need Chants (when I play DDANT with 6 chants Tempo Threshold is literally a bye, is the matchup that I'd like to always meet at a Tourney), discard can't take off multiple hate cards- it's true that against your list, Spell Snare is less relevant because of the lack of Infernal Tutor, but it would take away Stifle at least. Plus, I don't like all those moxens, as every good player knows the more Moxes you put in ANT, the less consitent will be the average opening hand. I hated 4 moxes when playing with TES, I can't even imagine how it would be to often open hands with 1 Chrome and 1 Diamond..pure card disadvantage.
And the lack of Igg is pure suicide. Relying only on Ad Nauseam makes it a limited combo without possibility to escape bad situations or red-based-aggro if you don't get a good start, or they manage to take you under 14-15 lives-this because the very fact that you run a lot of very high-cost cards.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Where is he playing Thoughseize? My list (nearly the same, I run only one Tendrils, no S-Visions) has a lower Avg. Casting Cost than DDANT or StraightANT.
Why should be Chant/Silence be better against TT than Pact of Negation?
Far from it, Pact costs 0 mana, thus you should be able to go off faster.
And every good player knows that you can be faster with them, sure a hand with two of them sucks, but I think with this list you will fizzle less with Ad Nauseam than with DDANT or Straight ANT.
Thatīs the point, LED-LESS ANT wants to be fast, you play more moxes, a "chant effect" for 0 mana so you shouldnīt come in bad situations and be able to win faster than other ANT Versions. We had the discussion about LED-LESS ANT some pages ago and
I canīt say which ANT version is the best. I think it depends on the meta.
But the most important factor is what you I like to play, some people prefer Straight ANT or DDANT, some LED-LESS ANT and as the results show all decks are able to win!
Pact of Negation pre combo is just bad. Seriously, the only part that actually matters is the pre-combo part, after you've drawn 30 cards winning is trivial.
Pact fights one counter after you've dumped your whole hand. If you haven't resolved a Duress right before you are just playing Russian Roullete hoping your opponent doesn't have a sencond counter. Chants garantees your plan won't be disrupted without the necessity of the compromising any resources but a card and W.
Pact makes you lose the game if they Brainstorm into 2 counters or something. That will make you lose games you could have rebuilt your hand and gone off again.
Playing non-LED ANT and not playing Red/Pyro Blast just doesn't make sense, the entire point of non-LED ANT was to use Red/Pyro Blast to deter Counterbalance. Pact of Negation is garbage, and cutting the best accelerant in the deck for the worst disruption that doesn't address any of the deck's weaknesses is pointless.
Pact of Negation is actually very powerful. The only reason not to play it is because of LED.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
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I have a question about the Merfolk-matchup.
I am new to the boards although I have been lurking for the last year or so. I recently put together an ANT-deck, pretty standard build. I have yet to take it to a tournament but I have been testing it at my local store pitting it against the usual crowd (most archetypes are represented, the only really notable exception being Stompy/Prison-strategies).
Most decks i've played against range from easy to beat to pretty tough although managable but there is one deck that seems near impossible to beat and that is Merfolk. I lose so hard in that matchup that it really feels like I am missing something important.
First of all there are so many things to play around. Stifle+Wasteland, Daze, FoW. This, of course, slows me down because I have to play safe mana and find protection before going off. That is not a huge problem when playing against *****-decks and the worst thing coming at you for the first couple of turns is a lonely Mongoose. The problem is that Merfolk-decks couple their quite impressive disruption with a surprisingly fast clock, not leaving much room for playing slowly.
So how does one approach this matchup? Should I just ignore Stifle, FoW and to some extent Daze and just try to go off as soon as possible before he gets too much of a clock on me? Should I focus on going off with IGG instead of AdN? Should I keep playing like I do, taking it slowly and go for the sure win and accept that Merfolk is a hard matchup? Or should I just build a DD-version and start practicing piles in case a real Merfolk-meta developes here? (it's seems to be going that direction already)
Care to elaborate on that?
Against a single counter it's AWESOME!
But in my meta people seem to carry Daze/FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Stifle in their pockets, because everytime I try to go off relying on them not having/not having topdecked another counter I lose.
After you go off it's quite good too, but as I said earlier, that part rarely matters.
Daze and Cursecatcher can be played around. If you can't get a Duress in and see no FoW, or can take their only FoW then you can probably go off the next turn as they have no Brainstorm and very little draw.
You should play around Stifle on your fetchlands and try to get basics with them. I don't really play the AdN version, so I always tend to lean on DD to win as that gives me more time to accumulated protection and mana (altough that gives them more time to disrupt me too).
From my experience you have to play your disruption and at some point go for it. They run only 4 hard counters and a lot of creatures, so there's also the chance they don't have a second/third/fourth counter. But be careful with your protection, Chant is bad when you have the exact mana to go off, as their Daze becomes a hard counter unless you want to gamble of course. Watch out for Vial at #1 putting Cursecatcher in play at instant speed.
So would you consider a DD-version more optimal in a Merfolk-heavy meta? Well, I guess you would consider DD-versions more optimal in general since you play the DD-deck, but in the Merfolk-matchup specifically?
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