Hey guys I top four'd today (4-1) at the local 25-man tourney with my sui variant. My rounds were: Burn (loss), Rock(Win), Elves (Win), Merfolk (Win), and ANT (Win). Top four split.
I've considered Negator but there's just too much Burn, Aggro, and Zoo in my meta that he would be a pain more often than he would win games. Instead I use Nyxathid, which won me almost every game he came down. I added two Nighthawks, which were awesome but too slow to up the count until I get Jittes.
Are Jittes generally reccommended? If so, what should I get first, Jittes or Needles?
If your meta is burn, aggro, and zoo then go with Jitte. An active Jitte will win you those matches. Pithing needle is still a good sideboard option. Only advice when including Jitte is to make sure your creature count stays high enough to support an active Jitte.
EDIT: Also, congrats on your win. Burn is definitely one of Sui's hardest match-ups. Nice to see you win all the matches that Sui should win. I find Elves can also be difficult, depending on the particular build you're facing. So nice job there as well.
Thanks man. Yea burn is a rough one, but I find that Nyxathid helps if I see one soon enough cuz he's almost always at least a 6/6 there.Originally Posted by Galroth
As far as Jitte goes, my meta also has a substantial countertop presence, and many merfolk, so is it still good against control decks? Or is something like Sword of light and Shadow better?
In truth, I like Sword of Light and Shadow just about as much as I like Jitte. Jitte typically wins out because of the lower mana curve, and because it is better at controlling the board. Jitte's advantage doesn't mean much against CounterTop though. I find that when I was running Jitte, I would board it out against CounterTop. It's not really essential to beat that deck. Against Merfolk it's fine.
Against CounterTop and Merfolk instead of more equipment, I'd probably just pack more threats. Gatekeeper of Malakir is one that I'd make sure to include. Anything that offers card advantage is great against blue. CounterTop in particular is very weak against resolved removal. But against red dominated aggro deck, Jitte is king. Life + board control straight up wins it for you.
tsup guys. i was hoping to get back into some discussions complete with tournament reports on the viability of hatred now. i haven't really been able to find any forums to discuss hatred for a while. i also have read all the reasons why folks say it is not worth playing and too risky and so on. perhaps you all are right. its not a percentage card, but suicide has never really been a percentage deck. hatred, even when popular was always a risky play in a field which always included burn and counters. i also think hatred requires some skill to play well. you may want to look at this. i used to discuss the deck here
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/archive/index.php/t-686.html
with a couple of other guys who played the deck. ages ago i qualified for nationals when it was legal. of course the sideboard is the most important part of playing a deck like hatred. the main deck in my opinion is only designed for beating control, the board is mainly for other aggressive decks. it seems like the field now for the most part is evenly split so perhaps this is not the deck to play.
i really like 3deuce's list here. not sure where he pulled it from, but i played around with it online, and it seems solid. only thing i would change is this.
-4 diabolic edict
+4 umezawa's jitte
-4 carnophage
+4 vampire lacerator
hatred simply should not need removal that is 1 for 1. personally, i don't think removal belongs in suicide which is already working off card disadvantage from dark ritual. suicide can't afford to go 1 for 1 against another deck unless there is some significant advantage to it. but i think hatred is made for jitte for several reasons.
turn 1 sarcomancy
turn 2 ritual, jitte, equip swing
and yes cards like
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual
4 City of Traitors
16 Swamp
so that is what i would do to 3 deuce's deck which if you test it out, ain't too bad. the jitte is primarily used to draw their counters and removal until you can draw your hatred combo and cast it.
also, many correctly argue that their are no good black tutors in the game so hatred sucks because black no longer has access to vampiric tutor, demonic consultation, or demonic tutor. yeah, maybe, but hatred when it was first legal did not have tutors and people still died to it left and right so, maybe it doesn't need it. even so, i threw together a version which uses imo the only thing close to a tutor black has.
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Tainted Pact
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
yeah, i know it looks janky. but the truth is, limiting the number of cards to 4 or less helps Tainted Pact do its job which is finding something to kill your opponent.
the reason you see Snow-covered Swamps in the deck is Tainted Pact
the reason you see Vault of Whispers in the deck is Tainted Pact
the reason you see Chrome Mox is speed and Tainted Pact
you are searching usually for hatred, ritual, negator or unmask. duress can be cut. i don't believe you actually need it in the deck. BEEFED and i determined that anyone not playing threats in the game is doing themselves a disservice. hell, BEEFED had great success with the deck and actually play NO DISCARD spells. bottom line is play threats. person with the most and longest standing threats wins. to this end, you only need Unmask when you are about to cast Hatred. if you need it at all. Unmask is only in for that reason. Duress is extra and could be cut. You may want to start Jitte in the Duress slot depending on the metagame.
the current metagame doesn't seem to call for the need for a tutor in this deck. so Tainted Pact is probably not necessary. if the field were all Ad Nauseum Tendrils then yeah, i would play 4 Tainted Pact, but its not. the version with 4 pact does beat down tendrils fairly easily.
anyone who plays this deck should also know every possible way it can be stopped (ie., daze, swords, force of will, lightning bolt, counterspell, fireblast or whatever). if you aren't familiar with everything that can wreck your plans and are not willing to play around it, this ain't the deck for you.
again, main deck is for control decks so your win conditions are hatred or negator really. that's it. this brings us to the board.
sideboard
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Shriekmaw
4 Dystopia
3 Umezawa's Jitte
the board is made for one thing. board advantage. you play something, he loses something. that's board advantage and keeps you ahead in a race. bout the only card i would add is 1 Spinning Darkness and maybe 1 Kaervek's Spite to the main deck. the board works surprisingly well against aggressive decks especially if they get a slow start and most aggressive decks are slow currently in the format.
boarding in up to 28 creatures plus cards like jitte and dystopia which sweep your opponents cards into the graveyard are the only way to go. bottom line is it is a proven strategy that works. playing more dudes then the other guy and especially dudes that remove their dudes. same exact strategy i used to get into nationals with hatred. i started 22 dudes and after boarding was up to 30 guys including massive removal guys like Masticore and main deck Cursed Scroll which i am not sure if either is viable anymore due to Tarmogoyf.
bottom line is black has so much removal, you simply add enough to remove your opponents threats. if you can't fit it in the side, go main deck jitte and add more to the board. and yep, often i will side in all 15 cards. have no problem doing that. it usually throws people off as they are seeing all these new cards come out of your hand.
their are other issues with the deck like play chrome mox AND unmask is not usually a good thing. you may want more shadow creatures like dauthi horror and cut a few skirge. the deck may also want cards like null rod in the board to deal with countertop, but that's what discussion is for. i realize this is the Suicide Black discussion. Hatred is just another arch type of Suicide Black. most of the decks posted look more aggro control black more then anything else to me. to me Suicide has always meant beatdown.
anyway, i want to open discussion on hatred decks here. even if its just me and someone like 3deuce, someone who obviously likes the deck. regardless of how widely unpopular it is and how many things that can stop it. it looks like you have discussed Suicide Black into the ground so why not play around with Hatred? it can still kill on turn 2 :)
anyway just food for thought.
peace.
necrowil
“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dűl, the Necromancer
No love for Vampire Nighthawk in Hatred builds? It can help you in games where you're behind in life so that you can still use Hatred. And it also has evasion!
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
ya i really don't know about vampire nighthawk. i guess the question becomes what do you cut for it? it might be a good sideboard card? i was actually considering making the entire deck vampire hatred with all vampires just because that card looks like it would be a huge asset to hatred, but i don't know that either. it may be a good idea since you can make all the vampires fly fairly easily and pump them up. although you are leaving the deck open to sideboard cards like engineered plague. i actually made some changes after testing today.
sideboard
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 shriekmaw
3 umezawa's jitte
3 perish
1 spinning darkness
main
18 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 duress
4 unmask
4 hatred
2 reckless spite
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge
of note perish seems better then dystopia in this deck, since you really just want to sweep guys out of the way and swing. the same is true for reckless spite which basically does the same thing. i used it on two tarmogoyf quite a few times and its and instant, so the 5 life makes it more then worth it.
also culling of the weak was added for things like gatekeeper and getting out shriekmaw faster and proved to be invaluable with sacking negators as well. now that there is no mana burn. no real reason not to.
Ideas: Instead of Culling the Weak for your mana acceleration, try out Lake of the Dead. It's a little easier to get into play, and if you really need to, you can use it multiple times.
Reckless Spite is kinda sweet. I'm not sure how well it works in a Hatred build just because you need to have the life advantage to pull off Hatred. Nonetheless, I'm tempted to include it in other builds of Suicide/MBA because I'm also a firm believer that Suicide/MBA really need card advantage to pull out wins.
Last Thought: When I tried to integrate Hatred into modern Suicide/MBA I preferred to not dedicate the deck solely to playing Hatred. Instead, I liked it better when including as a side plan. It forces the opponent to play around the card, while not hamstringing yourself by playing some sub-par cards.
Cards like Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir are still great in Hatred decks. Tombstalker still isn't bad. I tried a build with 3x Hatred, no search, Jitte, and Sword of Light and Shadows to make my 1 drops better. It had a little more success for me than a straight Hatred build, though I admit I didn't give that much time testing it.
Hello all,
Very long-time reader, but first-time poster.
“Negatred” decks have always been a favorite of mine.
This is a list I have had some success with lately.
4-Sarcomancy
4-Vampire Lacerator
4-Carnophage
4-Dauthi Slayer
4-Phyrexian Negator
4-Duress
4-Unmask
4-Diabolic Intent
4-Hatred
4-Dark Ritual
4-City of Traitors
2-Lake of the Dead
14-Swamp
The sideboard is in flux at the moment. Perish is a staple so far.
I have also been pretty successful sideboarding out Hatred and Diabolic Intent for Tombstalker and Gatekeeper of Malakair in some matches. Need to test this more though.
A few conclusions I have reached:
-Duress is very important. Unless your metagame is extremely creature heavy it should always be kept around, at least in the sideboard. With a deck like this you want to put lots of creatures on the board quickly. Thus, taking that Swords to Plowshares/Force of Will/etc. from your opponents hand in the first turn or two will often win you the game.
-If trying to win via casting Hatred as soon as possible, having two non-evasive creatures on the board quickly is often better than having one with evasion. Hence the inclusion of Carnophage over Skittering Skirge.
-Lake of the Dead is usually pretty effective. It is not good to see more than one though.
Still testing Diabolic Intent as Hatred’s # 5-8. This is another reason for using Carnophage over Skittering Skirge. So far it has been decent.
Has anyone else tested this card?
With zoo being most popular and a DTB as well as canadian ******** seeing more play Negator seems like not the first choice if you really want to win.
Aren't there alternatives?
What about Vampire nighthawk.
Flies and gives you a "free" hatred.
Team Legal Actions.
I did test Vampire Nighthawk. While it does look good on paper, I found them to be somewhat unsatisfactory and eventually went back to Phyrexian Negator.
The biggest issue I found with Nighthawk is that with its 2 power body for a casting cost of 1BB, it is not much of a clock on its own. Your opponent can often afford to ignore it for a turn or two while they stabilize. This is a big issue with this deck, with its very heavy beatdown focus coming at the expense of board control elements.
In short, the lifelink is nice but just not enough…
Another issue I found with Nighthawk is, rather surprisingly, the double black in its casting cost. There were several games where if I could have cast either it or Negator on turn two it would have won me the game. Instead I looked at my Swamp and City of Traitors on the board and wished I had Negator in hand.
(On a sidenote I am looking for a replacement for Dauthi Slayer for much the same reasoning).
Regarding Phyrexian Negator in general, its drawback is indeed annoying at times. However, it is not nearly as often as might be expected. It is a card your opponent usually has to deal with right away (Hatred or no), and you can actually buffer it somewhat by sacrificing Sarcomancy enchantments and City of Traitors (which are likely go into the graveyard soon anyway).
I do generally side them out versus decks like Zoo though, usually for Perish.
Try Dauthi Horror-easier to cast with one less toughness.
All of this talk about Hatred in suicide black had me brainstorming what an optimal modern hatred build would look like. I disagree with the route most of the lists posted have been taking. Hatred may have used 1cc 2/2s in the past to ensure that it had the higher life total than your opponent, but back then it also had Demonic Consultation to ensure that you would see Hatred at the right time.
Hatred decks used to play more like a combo deck than an aggro deck. That was the whole point of running Unmask in Hatred decks, to ensure that when you were ready to cast the spell, there was nothing that an opponent had to stop you (very similar to how ANT plays Orim's Chant).
Hatred was successful at the time because suicide black was the most aggressive deck out there and would gain the early board advantage and have the higher life total. That's not true in this environment. Zoo, goblins and several other decks are better at the beatdown role. I very much disagree with trying to use cards that are now antiquated, and building off a deck design philosophy that doesn't work with out present card pool and the current meta game.
That's not to say that I don't think Hatred could be an awesome card - it does present an interesting design direction. However, since there is no search to guarantee a Hatred when you're at a superior life total, I think it should be relegated to a supplemental strategy. Don't break yourself trying to integrate Hatred. It's better used as a trump card that your opponent has to play around... or they die.
The other reason Hatred could be viable, is because of two new black creatures that have lifelink! Lifelink + Hatred = Free Hatreds... which win games - that's really all there is to it.
A list:
Creatures (21)
4x Child of the Night
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Shriekmaw
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
Discard (10)
4x Thoughtsieze
3x Duress
3x Unmask
Other (4)
4x Hatred
Mana (25)
4x Dark Ritual
2x Lake of the Dead
19x Swamp
The whole idea is to use a near standard suicide black build while devoting limited space to integrate Hatred. Below are the card choices which aren't part of standard suicide blakc builds.
Child of Night - A strictly sub-par black creature. But godly with Hatred. Game 2 and 3 your opponent is going to use their tarmogoyfs as blockers for fear of Child of Night hitting them for lethal or near lethal damage with no cost to you.
Shriekmaw - I chose not to run any non-creature black removal spells in favor of Shriekmaw and Gatekeeper of Malakir. You still want to get Hatred through if you can, but you can't afford to not have a board presence. Shriekmaw servers double duty. And lastly, if somehow they're also blocking your flyers, it's harder to block a creature with fear.
Unmask - Hymn to Tourach is better in a standard build. But when you're actually ready to cast Hatred, Unmask is more castable. Tangent: why Thoughtseize and Duress over Hymn to Tourach? Same reason + This decks curve is dangerously high, so more 1cc plays are needed.
Lake of the Dead - It's Dark Ritual 5 + 6... and it's reusable. It's better than running Culling The Weak because you're not sacrificing your board presence for the extra mana. Lake of the Dead is also great at making sure Tombstalker and Shriekmaw see play.
Last note: I think Hypnotic Specter is actually the most questionable card. However, if there is something I've learned. It's often not right to save a Dark Ritual in your opening hand on the chance that you may draw in to Hatred. Use the Dark Ritual and cast the first turn Specter. Play the deck like modern suicide black and use Hatred as a trump card.
Last edited by Galroth; 01-03-2010 at 11:37 PM.
you really want culling of the weak in this deck. i think also you don't want diabolic intent as your creatures are your primary source of killing your opponent. supposed it gets countered. then you are kind of screwed. i played around with intent for a while. i don't think the card disadvantage is worth whatever card you find. also if you are playing intent, you don't need so many copies of hatred if you can tutor for it.
culling of the weak allows you to cast hatred consistently on turn 2 or 3 assuming you have a duress or unmask before you do so.
you ritual out zombie shadow creature and then unmask, culling the weak, hatred, game over. in your deck, you ritual out a creature then search for something with intent. then how do you go off on turn 3?
also, city of traitors is ok in this deck, i just find more swamps to be better.
and lake of the dead is a 2 of max card. it has to be the biggest wasteland/sinkhole magnet. culling of the weak sits in your hand. people tend to ignore it with thoughtseize. you are more likely to keep it.
also in your deck with city negator is better. in my current build i'm am trying to lose negator and testing nighthawk, but yes i came to the same conclusions about you did regarding its not much of a clock and hard to cast with city.
the thing is i think there may be a build out there without which is worth looking at. i just don't know what it is yet.
people are shying away from 2/1 creatures because of darcast and cards like fire/ice and engineered plague. dauthi horror is good though and may be a better way to go then negator however.
because of the changing formats and cards, the deck has change. i would call it aggro-control-combo. with the aggro being the quick threats, control would be the disruptive elements and hand destruction and combo would be the hatred kill. i also think pursuing them in that order makes the most sense. that being said, hatred is a win condition. ritual negator is a win condition. that's basically how the deck wins is those two conditions. u might get a good creature rush, but probably not before your opponent stabilizes.
the utility design you speak definitely exists. you might read BEEFED posts. he had a really strong utility build that worked a lot. keep in mind this was for extended when tempest block was still in extended in 2005. now of course its not anymore. but his points about the deck have been thoroughly proven to be on the money. here are some of his quotes:
http://forums.mtgnews.com/showthread...ferrerid=36212
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/archive/index.php/t-686.html
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?t=686
BEEFED was like the master of playing a combination utility/hatred deck. but his testing was extensive and for a long time his deck ran NO hand destruction. later he added mesmeric fiend.
his philosophy was simple. you keep playing threats to kill your opponent until they are dead. your opponent plays threats and so do you. whomever survives the other threats wins.
so i'm sure a version using utility and hatred exists where you are not relying on hatred, but i'm not sure what that might be.
Hey crew,
So after playing around with Diabolic Intent a bit and looking over old posts from BEEFED and the Bruce’s post, I made the following changes.
I went up to 28 creatures to basically insure I wouldn’t mind sacrificing one for Diabolic Intent. This is the best tutor we have now, so we might as well use it. However, I think you need to run a much heavier creature base. Typically, Skittering Skirge gets sacrificed to Culling the Weak or Diabolic Intent.
Also, I have been testing Gatekeeper main deck and Mesmeric Fiend main deck and I like both cards a lot. I just like Skittering Skirge a lot in any deck you have to sacrifice creatures. They work well with things like Cabal Therapy.
Also, running Sarcomancy, Vampire Lacerator and Fledgling Djinn means running Phyrexian Negator. Simply because you may want to sacrifice cards which are damaging you too much. I just moved Negator back to main after trying out Gatekeeper and Fiend main deck. I think Fiend was probably better to start then Gatekeeper. Removing a card from the game is nice. A lot of times you would hold a gatekeeper back and wait for your opponent to play a threat and that is not what this deck is meant to do. Though removal main deck is nice, it seems its fine without it as well.
Also, I cut Carnophage because I don’t want too many guys who can be stopped by Chalice of the Void for 1.
Also in discussion about Dauthi Horror and replacing Dauthi Slayer in Bruce’s deck I remembered Fledgling Djinn which fits very nicely in this deck. This brings your total number of evasion creatures to 16 which is very, very, tough to stop. Negator is almost overkill.
I removed Reckless Spite because I wanted a different kind of removal. The life loss was Ok, but I wanted better. I tried Withering Wisps which is like Pestilence for 3 which is pretty good game finisher and thought about Kaervek’s Spite which I may add but decided on Spinning Darkness.
All the other cards in the board are real solid though I may want more discard to deal with Ad nauseum Tendrils, but here it is.
18 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 hatred
2 diabolic intent
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 fledgling djinn
4 phyrexian negator
4 hypnotic specter
4 skittering skirge
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 mesmeric fiend
3 umezawa's jitte
3 perish
1 spinning darkness
I would like to run Extirpate in the board. One note about Extirpate. In this deck, its really good to Extirpate at the end of your opponents turn so you can see their hand and then cast Hatred on your turn if they don’t have anything. Even though that’s good the card has limited use here I think.
What ends up happening is you use Diabolic Indent to finish your opponent off, so you end up casting Hatred for like 6-9 life which is not huge even if it gets stopped.
The thing about not running discard main is against most of the field now you do not need discard. You only need it vs certain types of decks and you can bring in Mesmeric Fiend then. And 4 gatekeeper is really strong in this deck. Occasionally you wish you had discard or removal, but for most matchups like against Zoo or Eva Green or agro this is the way you want to run.
Also, you may want to move Diabolic Intent to the Sideboard as well, but so far the deck seems to be fine.
Peace.
Necrowil
“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dűl, the Necromancer
4x Mesmeric Fiend
4x Hypnotic Specter
Suicide black has neutered its combo game.
No Thoughtseize, Duress or even Hymn to Tourach? In the legacy general meta, suicide blacks best match-ups fall in the combo/control area. This is purely conjecture, because I haven't tested any Beefed lists, but it looks like your sacrificing where Suicide Black accels most for matches that will still be questionable.
I can see Beefed being better than a normal sui build against Zoo, Goblins, possibly Burn. But Solidarity, ANT, Dredge, etc will absolutely rock you. Seriously, Beefed, while awesome for its time is an out-dated version of MBA decks. Having that high of a creature count may work against creature heavy decks, but against current combo decks it's going to fail hard. Even against decks like Survival Elves, or 43 land I'm not sure Beefed has an improved game.
Cool idea to toy with and look for possible innovation, but man combo is gonna rape you!
Has anyone considered Bitterblossom in one of these hatred-type builds? It's a real pain to deal with if they can't counter it, and it gives you a constant source of fuel for Diabolic Intent, Culling the Weak, and chump blockers if you're staring at some fatties on the other side of the table.
I tried bitterblossom early on. It is too slow.
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