[DTW] Bant Survival

[phamtastic]

for goblins why not dueling grounds??? seems great since we're running a bunch of exalted. as for fow pitching...there is already quite a few. monk, daze(spell snare, whichever you prefer), brainstorm, sprite, and fow itself(which sucks when it happens). a lot of these cards also stay in after boarding with the exception of sprite and brainstorm depending on player preference.

[Waikiki]

Any creature wins you the game there, provided his board was empty as you imply it was. Since his hand was empty after playing Standstill, that implies his hand was empty on your turn. A threshed Werebear, really anything with four or more power, would have won you the game there.

You: Werebear

Him: Draw Standstill

You: Swing four

Apparently his next card was Elspeth which means any evasive creature also wins you the game. Heck, Grizzly Bears plus a topdecked Path to Exile wins you the game.

My point is even if Spellstutter Sprite won you that game, it's because it was an evasive creature, and not because of any quality unique to Spellstutter Sprite. Unless you can clarify the game situation for me...

To make things clear it is his turn and he is abusing explosives lock with academy ruins. He just returned it drew it and cast it for two killing my goyf. Then cast standstill. He also has an active jace on the board so If I didn't respond with flashing in the faerie I would die under alot of card advantage. Now he has only 4 turns to do smt about the faerie. So the flash + evasive of the faerie won me the match where a single werebear would just die an recurring explosives fate where this play drew me 3 cards and let me survival for the win.

So you're always going to keep 2-3 mana open in a mana hungry deck in case they play one-CC removal?

This is where I think my playstyle differs When I get an survival active the first thing I do is getting a thread on the table. Secondly I will just keep all my mana open to protect the guy. If my opponent does not I will simply use G to activate survival discarding squee and get another exalted dude probably hierarch cast it and swing again long enough till he's dead and my faeries counter relevant removal or he somehow manage to kill my creature which makes me get a new thread. If the faeries are not allready able to seal the deal with so many exalted triggers. I will not be keep pumping fatties each turn. [/quote]

I don't like Spell Snare either, and I don't run it in my 75. And yes, Spellstutter Sprite is relevant in the ANT matchup, but aside from Zoo, ANT, and a couple of tier two decks like Dreadstill, Burn, and Sligh, Spellstutter Sprite is the worst card(s) in your deck.

In my meta the most common decks are zoo and ant.

On a sidenote I am currently testing a build without the sprites and snares just for trying out. I'm very curious how the build will feel for me.

@everybody, I do not understand why we are searching for cards to improve the aggro matchup, with my current board and md its just fine. The best u could do is add 2 jittes if your really aggro infested.

[Kuma]

To make things clear it is his turn and he is abusing explosives lock with academy ruins. He just returned it drew it and cast it for two killing my goyf. Then cast standstill. He also has an active jace on the board so If I didn't respond with flashing in the faerie I would die under alot of card advantage. Now he has only 4 turns to do smt about the faerie. So the flash + evasive of the faerie won me the match where a single werebear would just die an recurring explosives fate where this play drew me 3 cards and let me survival for the win.

Fair enough.

Still, that's an incredibly specific situation, and you still could have won with a Vendilion Clique. I can't imagine you win lots of games like this, and as such, the usefulness of Spellstutter Sprite needs to be critically examined.

[MSC]

For the Aggro-Matchups, I bring Malfegor from the Sideboard, instead of Iona. It's still in testing, but till now it seams valid.


Combo is a coinflip. Spell Pierce and Teegs make it fair after Boarding, but before it's just Force for loose. But I don't think, that Sprites here are really good. You need to put pressure on Combo and keeping 2 Mana open doesn't help here.

[chokin]

I'm still not digging the Sprites. I tried them out again, and it just feels like they slow me down too much. I'm wondering if Daze might be any good. Noble keeps you up on mana anyways and it lets you drop a turn 2 RWM while still leaving combo to worry about Force and/or Daze. Hitting them for 4 even one time could hurt a storm player some because they need an extra 2 spells played and have less life to Ad Nauseum with.

Malfegor seems risky, but I guess so does my suggestion of Kuro. Dromar looks interesting. If you get an attack in, you can pretty much lock them out.

[MSC]

We digged for every Legend we could find and decided for Malfegor, cause he does something on the spot. Yeah, normally he just kills 2 creatures from your opponent, but normally that's enough. Especially, cause he his a 6/6 himself.


Daze ist just awfull. The Deck doesn't like to take back his lands and has no form of Mana-Disruption, so Daze has no use after the early Game.
Another Point is the Demand for an Island. I normally don't start with fetching Duals, to reduce Damage from Wastelands. And it is huge to have no Island vs. Merfolk.

[chokin]

I was just saying that free (FoW, Daze) or 1cc counters (Spell Snare, Spell Pierce) feel better than 2cc counters (Spellstutter Sprite) for putting pressure down on a combo player. I think that Daze is still semi relevant, as people will play around it more times than not. And being able to tap out on turn two and still protect yourself is kinda huge. Probably a personal preference though. Kinda like Sprites.

If I have a Noble Hierarch in hand, I'll fetch a Tropical Island. If my opponent then Wastes it, I have 1 mana on board while they have one or zero. If not, then I usually try for a basic (Forest>Island>Plains).

[Kuma]

For the Aggro-Matchups, I bring Malfegor from the Sideboard, instead of Iona. It's still in testing, but till now it seams valid.

That's a very interesting idea. Discarding your hand seems terrible, but it might be worth it to wipe an entire board of Goblins, Merfolk, or Zoo creatures. Be sure to let us know if it continues to be worth discarding your hand.

Combo is a coinflip. Spell Pierce and Teegs make it fair after Boarding, but before it's just Force for loose. But I don't think, that Sprites here are really good. You need to put pressure on Combo and keeping 2 Mana open doesn't help here.

Gaddock Teeg is a pretty poor option against any list with Doomsday, and is too slow to affect Belcher. Ethersworn Cannonist is much more effective against combo.

You do need to put pressure on combo, but Sprites attack while slowing your opponent down. Modern combo, with the exception of Belcher, is actually a lot slower than it used to be, and Spellstutter Sprites can counter key Mystical Tutors, cantrips, and Sensei's Divining Tops.

I'm wodering if Daze might be any good. Noble keeps you up on mana anyways and it lets you drop a turn 2 RWM while still leaving combo to worry about Force and/or Daze.

I don't think we want to be returning lands to our hands in a deck this mana hungry. They might be okay against Storm, but I don't think I'd want them in any other matchup.

[Enigma]

Just a quick note to say that Loyal Retainer/Iona is a bomb. We integrated it in a GWB Survival shell with Natural order and it made a really good performance last saturday, taking 18th place out of 82, piloted by a player that didn't test that much before going there. It killed Dredge, Zoo, Merfolk so easily! His only losts were to Counter Top.

So yeah, If I would play Survival Bant again, it would definitly be with Retainer/Iona combo.

P-M

[MSC]

That's a very interesting idea. Discarding your hand seems terrible, but it might be worth it to wipe an entire board of Goblins, Merfolk, or Zoo creatures. Be sure to let us know if it continues to be worth discarding your hand.

I will.
Discarding your hand only seams to be bad. When you drop Malfegor, you already have a Survial on the Board, so your Handcards are mostly not needed anymore.

Gaddock Teeg is a pretty poor option against any list with Doomsday, and is too slow to affect Belcher. Ethersworn Cannonist is much more effective against combo.

Teeag still stops Tendrils against Dommsday.
Cannonist may be better against Tendrils, but Teeg helps against a much broder List of Decks. Landstill, Planeswalker.Deck and Stax, to name a few.
But i would not argue with anyone playing Cannonist in this spot...

[Dark Zero]

Teeag still stops Tendrils against Dommsday.

Teeg alone is simply bad against Doomsday without counterbackup. The DDANT player will make a pile with bounce or destruction and go for the combo. Right beforce casting ToA he'll bounce/destroy your Teeg and in the meantime he doesn't have to fear your Forces.

Teeg alone does a shit, because the opponent still is able to sculpt his hand, while against Canonist, he is slowed down in better way.

It is true that Teeg is better against more othe decks like Stax or LS, but definitely not against combo including Doomsday.

[Windux]

Most Doomsdaylists will board in Saughter Pact/Chain of Vapor/Deahmark.
That's the reason why I do play Teeg + Mage + Iona + Kira.

Teeg+Kira is GG, because most decks just play 1 Removal and they can't replay it in the same turn with IGG thanks to Teeg.

Teeg+Iona will mostly be GG, if the removal is black or you can name the right.

MM+Kira will be GG if they just play 1 Removal/Bounce, because they need 2 shots for Kira and 1 for MM.

MM (on the right removal)+Teeg will be GG as well, if they play just 1 Removal.

Canonist has no synergy with this.
Canonist+Teeg/MM+Kira is 1 card more and because of that also 1 turn slower.

Along with this creatures I do have 3 Spell Pierce in the side, which can give me 1-2 turns (for example when they know that I board in counters - which they will do - and want to Duress you before they combo off).

[chokin]

Meddling Mage...I don't like. Teeg shuts off IGG, Tendrils, AN, Belcher, ETW, Dread Return, Moat, Humility, Wrath, 4cc+ Planeswalkers and so on. With Meddling Mage, I always feel like I need 2-3 to really lock them out. The only thing I like about Mage is that he can be pitched to Force of Will. I think I prefer the "catch all" feel of Teeg. I can always go for Kira to protect him too.

Survival+Canonist in a favorable or neutral board position can allow you to drop superior creatures and win. But to be fair, Iona does the same thing against mono colored decks. It's just Canonist is a little cheaper to send out. I will concede that in an unfavorable board, Canonist is not good, but Iona could be ok.

I still want to dick around with Magus of the Moat+Kira vs aggro though. I think it could be pretty powerful.

[MSC]

I run 1 Meddling Mage Mainboard. In some Matchups he is exactly what you need. Examples are Loam (on Loam or Devastating Dreams), Combo (Ad-Nauseam, Tendrils or Dream Halls) or Icchorrid (Dread Return).

Against averything else he is a bear with a semi-relevant Abbillity or a Force-Pitch to Fetch with Survival.

[Jak]

Just picked up a Loyal Retainer and can't wait to start playing with it. I wish there was a Legendary creature that didn't cause me to discard my hand to wipe the board.

I also have been trying out 3 Mother of Runes in place of Sprites. Better protection and great offensively. The only problem is the blue count and then trimming cards down to fit them in as well as Iona and Retainers. I am probably sticking with Kira for now. I still if I like not having Sprites.

18 Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

19 Spells
4 Survival
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

23 Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kira
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee
1 Wonder
1 Rafiq
1 Iona

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Back to Basics
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rhox War Monk

[majikal]

How is Back to Basics working out for you?

[Jolly_roger]

Why not myojin of cleansing fire instead of malfegor?

[conboy31]

Why not myojin of cleansing fire instead of malfegor?

Oracle text: Myojin of Cleansing Fire enters the battlefield with a divinity counter on it if you cast it from your hand.

[Jak]

How is Back to Basics working out for you?

Pretty meh to be honest. I threw it in there to fight decks with Loam but Pithing Needles and Crypts would probably be just as good. I also should have a Sower in there because it is amazing versus Aggro Loam which I am sure I will be seeing.

3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Genesis
1 Sower of Temptation

This is everything that rotates in and out of my sideboard. Back to Basics is a recent addition that I haven't been liking much but should still be tested because it can win games versus Landstill, 43 Land, Aggro Loam, CounterTop, etc.

Depending on what I am guessing I'll see, I trim down on the aggro hate, or the GY hate, or the combo hate.

[majikal]

What about Root Maze?