16 land and 4x Hierarch...Originally Posted by umbowta
Yeah, I don't think anyone is running any 15L version without hierarch backup, even because some of our powerfull sideboards are 3cc like Krosan Grip or Seeds. But even if you can manage to cut all of that, you still want the extra land to double-pumps.
As a side note, the chance of getting 2 or more lands in 10 draws(inicial + 3 turn draws) with 15 lands is 77%, and with 18 it's 86%. Even though, if you disconsider hands with 5 or more lands (which means: 2+3+4 lands in 10 draws), you have 42% with 15 lands, and 50% with 18...
And if you consider 7 draws, and ideal hands of 2~3 lands, the most favorable number we will get is 60%, and 18 lands has 57% of chance on getting 2~3, while 15 has 50%.
Further information on this may be found here: http://www.filefront.com/15378711/Cards%20Check.xls
Now, about the tests with Martyr of Spores, I discontinued it. Against Zoo it gets pretty worse. It's burneable, and it's a 2cc pump that requires you to hold your cards to work well. And since I was runnig him instead of a pump, I was willing to get a pump, not a 1/1 vanilla. Maybe Pendelhaven can work something out for him, and then run it instead of nettle/elite?
Although, I don't think I wanna test pendelhaven anymore... It does't like rancor in silhana/bogle, and don't like the remeaning creatures, and so, it got a low % of chance of being good.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
It taps for green mana, doesn't come into play tapped, and it can pump any one of the approximately 12 1/1's you may have in play. If only it weren't legendary. Even so I'm running two of them and love it. Yes, sometimes I don't have a 1/1 to pump but it still taps for green. I honestly can't believe I have to argue for its inclusion at all when I've heard so many folks saying they lose to mana screw/having only 1/1 in play with no pumps left..
It's personal, but I dont use it because I prefer basic forest. I don't think the advantage it brings is better than the disadvantage of having non-basic, and thus, wastland targets. It's not because it taps for green and do something else that it's better than basic forest.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I tend to agree. A lot of decks are running 4 x Wasteland. We run 100% basics for a reason, and low land count. You cannot afford to have a precious land wasted just for to add 1 damage to your Bogle.
Actually, I can afford to have a land Wasted...since there are 17 more where that one came from, 13 of which are basic forests. Now if I happen to get stuck on 2 nonbasics (out of 5 total in the deck) AND they happen to have 2 wastelands, then I frown. Also, its not just for adding one damage to bogle. I don't even run bogle for the simple fact that it has no built in evasion. Troll shroud is good but evasion is king.
I've been running 18 land in the deck since I tested Chapuzas' version over a year ago and felt like the deck needed one more land. I won the Beta Bash with that build but I still felt like it was missing something. The deck runs best on 3 land but any past that is just pointless. Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven are both gas in the late game when you can cycle canopies away for extra cards and/or use pendlehaven to make Silhana just a little bit bigger before you Berserk it for the last few points.
In my opinion, Horizon Canopy is somehow better than pendelhaven, since it's harder to be wasted (draw a card in response), and since an extra card seems to be better than aditional +1/+2 to some creatures.
What are you running on sideboard right now?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I am running 4 Canopies in a white/green deck with Aether Vial, they are most welkom if you have too many lands. Vial is just great if they have wasteland.
I am willing to try them out in my Stompy deck. I will give Pendelhaven a try also. I will go back to 17 lands though. Even with 4 Hierarch in the deck.
Agreed. My testing leads me to believe that 3 is the right number for Canopy. I don't mind multiples in the late game but I don't want an opening hand flooded with them either. Pendlehaven, as you suggest, is good to a lesser degree. I fluctuate between 1 and 2 of them...too bad I can't run 1.5.
My current sideboard is set up for a meta containing control, thresh based aggro control, and other aggro decks(which I essentially ignore).
4x Rushwood Legate
3x Reverent Silence
3x Seeds of Innocence
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
The one I can see you questioning, Reverent Silence, is there for White Stax and Enchantress. Whether they're hiding behind Ghostly Prison/Oblivion Ring or Elephant Grass etc...Reverent Silence is game breaking even if you don't have Kavu on the battlefield.
Have to comment that I was using exact the same numbers here. Thought I was too wierd doing that, at least I'm not the only one. ^_^
This part of the side seems to be able to enter into a lot of games.
Checking: Enchantress, Stax, Aggro-Loam (chalice, moxes and words), Affinity, CB top (I like Reverent silence against it), and probably some other things I'm missing.
Then I run 3 Tormods mostly against Loam -n- Ichorid.
Just was thinking about the Zoo matchup that isn't impossibly bad, but isn't good match either... that's why I was concerned about it. Just wanted to add something (even reducing something else) to handle it to at least 60% postboard, but can't be sure on what to use.
I did consider Jitte, or simply Bounty of the Hunt (since I don't run them), or even Troll Ascetic.
I don't run legate, never felt like it broke some matchup for me, and usually, blue on the other side is a color in our favor already. I used to side shusher, but now I'm not sure about him either...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I'm about the only one locally who is willing to pilot Zoo. Most others I talk to around here have a low oppinion of that DTB and they opt to play Thresh, Landstill, Aggro-Loam, Stax, Enchantress, and some players try to pilot Combo and fail to themselves...so I tend not to board locally for combo or Zoo. That leaves me room for Legate which is total beatings against blue based control.
This is the side I'll be using:
3 Tormod's
3 Seeds
3 Reverent
3 Krosan
3 Troll Ascetic
Although it seems useless sometimes, I also like adding a singleton Gaea's Blessing, so maybe I'll be cutting Seeds down to 2.
I believe Troll can bring the victory against Zoo only by showing up and denying their 1cc attacks, since it can chump-block + regen, and can't be removed. So, it seems the best option to bring that match to a greater level.
IMHO, Eva Green and Team America are already favorable, but Troll shall be good here too.
From what we consider to be good matchs, most of the control decks (besides stax) are already favorable, and siding Grips to counter-attack E.E., deeds, Shackles, threads, and other possible stuff seems fine enough.
Against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, Painter, and other possible Artifact/Enchantment intense matchs, the 3-3-3 configuration always comes in. Against CB+Top, Krosan grip and maybe Reverent shall be enough, since if they cant cb-top-lock us, the match gets easier.
Against Aggro loam and Ichorid I'd side Tormod's, and krosan against loam. Ichorid isn't favorable by just adding tormods, but we do have a chance of killing then before they combo without it. As a awsome tech, don't forget to berserk some guy to break bridge. =)
ANT and TES depends on their build, but if they don't use Ill Gotten Gains, them I got nothing SB. If it's a much expected matchup, I would change the Zoo-hate for Combo-hate, probably Mindbreak trap (which needs testing). Even though, it's an unfavorable match. As it's been said, try to rush them so that AN can't be abused.
Against Dream Halls if you see any, try to rush him, so he will be forced to combo with progenitus. They spend quite some life to use lim-dul. Progenitus gives you 2 attacks before your death (with 1 chump-block), but it's still possible to kill them by turn 4~5.
Did I miss anything?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
You mean a select few of those 3-3-3 come in right? I don't think I'd ever want to board in all 9 of them.
I had a singleton Gaea's Blessing in the board and it might has well have been a 2 of clubs. It literally felt totally useless.
My initial reaction to Troll in the board is, "Not a chance". I think it's too little, too late. Their 1cc guys trade with Troll before you get regen online and by that time in the game you're probably getting close to being burned out with or without a troll. It's seems to me that stalling the Zoo rush just long enough to put together a big finish is all that might be needed. I put together a list of a few possibilities:
Constant Mists
Fruition
Avoid Fate
Traproot Kami
VoV
Xantid Swarm
Maze of Ith
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Moments Peace
Tangle
Kitchen Finks
Phantom Nantuko
Meekstone
These are all aimed at either avoiding their removal or just slowing the Zoo rush down a bit. There might be something you find is worth trying. Let us know how it works out though.
Wow, of course I meant that! ;D
Hmmm... yeah... Only use is against High Tide, and I see it close to never.
Well, it was tested by Otter, although in a different version of the deck, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned that Troll did great.
I don't think it's slow although it won't solve the problem all the time. I think by third~fourth turn Zoo can't beat us, even if they get closer by those turns. Zoo is faster when draw less removal, and in that situation, they can't slow us down, making it easier to survive.
By turn 3, with 18 lands you will have 3 lands ~60% of the time.
Of course I'm not counting only on that (since I would find Troll by turn 3 with 3 lands on board like 25% of the matchs, considering it's chance to appear).
I already play 3 Vines of Vastwood maindeck, and I also play 4 Bogle + 4 Silhana, which is a lot of burn-proof. I know it may sound reduntant, but VoV is slower than seal, but has more Damage, which is some advantage, making it less sub-optimal when I don't need the protection.
Well, can't say anything else before tests.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
New pump from WWK:
Groundswell G
Instant (common)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn instead.
A better MoOK variant that allows for combat tricks, however in this deck with land counts running on the low end of the spectrum (anywhere between 14-18 depending on the build), perhaps it's not the most reliable option.
Thoughts?
I thought the same when I saw that card. I'll definitely test that card in the MoOK-Slot - I find myself flooded WAY to often and with Scryb Ranger (and/or its Quirion cousin) it might even be useful.
Nevertheless I still think Krosa might be the better play most of the time.
Pretty sure that Groundswell is not what we're looking for. With such a low land count it's difficult to obtain real consistancy with the card unless you run Scryb or Quirion Ranger. Scryb Ranger doesn't have the power to manacost ratio necessary to be a really good maindeck card (you can board her again against Fish, there she's at her best). I haven't tested Quirion Ranger, but I'm guessing that Hierarch is better. So without those two engines, it's inconsistent. It's not much more impressive than Krosa at pumping on the kill turn, its only advantage being that if you have one more guy than they can block, you can Groundswell after blockers more effectively than Krosa. When you're not going on the kill for offense, just trying to force a trade with one of their guys, it's good. It's strictly worse than any other option on the defense. With that said, it's still interesting and should get tested, but I suspect that the inconsistency (or forcing you to play Rangers) will be an issue.
The other card that looks interesting right now is:
Basically just "Enchanted Creature is a Ledgewalker." I don't think it can make the cut, since unlike Ledgewalker there's an opening to target the creature in response and it's also not actually a beater or a pump spell. On the other hand, Ledgewalker is an absolutely sick creature in this deck and the opportunity to turn anything into one is appealing. If only it were an equipment.Canopy Cover - 1G
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying and/or reach.
Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
Auch!
Too bad Berserk Stompy didn't make the cut for "every single deck in Legacy"...
... So Many Insane Plays - Your Complete Guide to Legacy: The 50 Decks of Legacy by Stephen Menendian ...
;(
That's not better than Might of Old Krosa. It's even. MoOK depends on nothing to reach +4/+4 for the berserk (or not), but this can be used to get +4/+4 during combat in your turn. None gives +4/+4 on opponent's turn though. It's slightly better than MoOK against aggro decks that will often try to block your underlings with something. But against those same decks you may want to try to find an opportunity to go to the final blast, and in that case, you would need to hold a land in hand so that Groundwell gets similar to MoOK.
Seems like it has an easy way around, but if you got Silhana and Grounds, one landin table and one in hand (and probably a 1cc creature played), you will be asking yourself "play Silhana or hold land" and then decide that the odds of drawing a land are better, and so you would play the second land like ~100% of the time you got Grounds. But not 100% of the time on that situation we will find the third land, making it subpar to MoOK. Maybe it will only happen in the 20% of the games, in which you will find only 1~2 lands, but that makes it subpar 1/5 of the time.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
This would go extremely well in the Kavu build if only it didn't fail miserably at killing Chalice and Counterbalance, the two things it really needs to kill. Rather frustrating.Nature's Claim - G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment, its controller gains four life.
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