[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Dark Ritual]

The problem with it is that it makes crucible and LftL that much more godly against us games 2 and 3. They play it, exile our yard, wasteland it, return it with crucible/LftL, rinse, repeat over and over until we cannot win and we need to hardcast stuff like stinkweed's, narc's, and other expensive cards for us to try to beat them down. And combined with knight of the reliquary translates into instant speed removal of our yard. It can also be boarded in against us in place of say basic swamps and if that happens they don't dilute one bit of their gameplan which can spell defeat for us if they land a turn 2 stalker or something with this card backing them up. It also doesn't help that all of our discard effects are useless against land cards unless we chose to run encroach which seems terribly janky.

The good news is, this card will not be widely played. Only in black decks will this see play most likely.

I like city of brass a lot games 2 and 3; being able to get more than 3 mana from 1 land is important to me in being able to cast grudge, PImp, tribe, or whatever. I don't want to have to choose between two cards which I want to cast because that can lead to some bad misplays and can lose you the game sometimes.

[AcidFiend]

I was afraid of another hate-card being printed. Luckily I think the options people have now are better (crypt, relic, trap) and people can only fit so many anti-grave cards in the sideboard.

[Illissius]

Supposedly Dredge doesn't actually care about sorcery speed hate because it can just go off on its own turn and ignore it. I don't play Dredge however so I couldn't say.

[kicks_422]

As a supplementary hate card, I see it as a very powerful tool. However,on it's own, it could only do damage if you're slow rolling the dredge. Against decks that would use this land, that would most often be after they've popped a Crypt/Relic or after you've dug for the Leyline answer.

[frogboy]

Supposedly Dredge doesn't actually care about sorcery speed hate because it can just go off on its own turn and ignore it. I don't play Dredge however so I couldn't say.

I do play Dredge. The Bog is terrible. Land, Tribe, go. Upkeep pump, dredge, pump, Breakthrough, dredge, you're dead. At no point does the Bog have relevant text.

[jimirynk]

Crop rotation makes it an instant.

[Aleksandr]

I do play Dredge. The Bog is terrible. Land, Tribe, go. Upkeep pump, dredge, pump, Breakthrough, dredge, you're dead. At no point does the Bog have relevant text.

Flavor text maybe...?

Well, I am not very happy with another hate card, namely because Ichorid cannot stop it, but I agree that it is not that dangerous as e.g. Relic is.
Sure, there are decks that make a good use of this card (namely Crucible/Loam.dec as already mentioned), but I cannot imagine anyone playing this card pre-board (except for one-of as a KotR target, but then we have three to five turns before it hits - depends on who starts, number of Mox Diamonds - not to mention that the oponent must get his Knight first). Postboard it's all about sideboard (ehm... not a breakthrough, I know), so with a good sideboarding tactics and pilotage, we can still fight the usual hate and then go crazy once the time is right. I won countless games with "EOT Grudge" that left the opponent without instant answers to my combo. And that exactly is this card: non-instant hate. It's like Crypt that must be immediately popped. I'm ok with it.

Also Narcomoeba, PImp, Stinky, Ghast, occasional Ichorid and/or Zombie beatdown is good plan for G2/3 and I won games when my opponent started with double Leyline, thinking he cannot lose, but I just tapped my hobbies until he went from 20 to 0.



EDIT: Also - sideboards are not inflatable. And I laugh if people start to pack this crap in massive numbers. It will slow them down horribly without any effect, cause we can just combo during our turn as Frogboy wrote.
@ Crop Rotation argument: Well, I am ready to lose one game in milion played to Crop Rotation->Bog Land.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Don't worry about the Bog, this card is highly irrelevant. The only deck that runs Crop Rotation that is any good is Eternal Garden, which is basically an auto-loss for Dredge anyway since ... there is no answer for Chasm Lock and Tabernacle. The Bog will not be played there. And any deck running the Knight to fetch it out is already a ridiculously strong matchup and they may run 1 Bog in the board. Thats it, if you are really worried, board in Needles for Knight or Therapy it away. This is the only way that terrible land will ever be run. And if people really want to play 4 of them in the board to deal with dredge ... more power to them I guess, Relic is just better in every way; you may lose a few games to it here and there because of how unexpected it is, (like those idiots running Mindbreak Trap in metas where 2% of the field is storm) but it will not be a problem.

[Aleksandr]

I also strongly believe that people that overcommit their sideboards to dredge matchup will lose to established decks, namely Thresh, so we won't meet them on the higher tables. (says the guy that does not frequent 50+ ppl tournaments/)

[frogboy]

Crop rotation makes it an instant.

Ravenous Trap is an instant.

[BreathWeapon]

What decks would pack it? Eva Green, The Rock, Depths junk? It's a Sorcery speed removal wich actually looks awesome at first glance. But actually ain't good at all. The fact that it comes into play tapped makes it uterlly useless.

It's busted in Intuition/Life from the Loam decks, that's better than Academy Ruins + Tormod's Crypt recursion, also gives a Knight of the Reliquary a lot of utility as well as Crop Rotation (43 Lands). Just SBing the thing is like a Tormod's Crypt that can't be discarded and that can add to the land count - shit that'd be good in the mirror IMO.

This card is seeing play, definitely.

[Anusien]

Please run lands that come into play tapped and make an irrelevant color of mana (i.e., not blue). You may increase your Ichorid matchup by 5% (it takes a deck from "No way to interact in game 1" to "Almost no way to interact in game 1") but you'll lose hard to the other decks in the format.

This is an effective anti-Loam card, not an anti-Dredge card. Loam decks will play one to win the mirror, and that's probably about it.

[pippo84]

About Bog look it another way: if WotC is printing new graveyard hate they will surely print some new card to abuse the graveyard!

[BreathWeapon]

Please run lands that come into play tapped and make an irrelevant color of mana (i.e., not blue). You may increase your Ichorid matchup by 5% (it takes a deck from "No way to interact in game 1" to "Almost no way to interact in game 1") but you'll lose hard to the other decks in the format.

This is an effective anti-Loam card, not an anti-Dredge card. Loam decks will play one to win the mirror, and that's probably about it.

Not necessarily, as the hate becomes increasingly diverse, the value of Cabal Therapy decreases. Just a combination of 1xRavenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus and this land causes a lot of problems for our traditional disruption strategy. I think it'll see more play just on the back of being a Therapy work around.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Wow, dedicating more than 4-5 slots of your SB to grave hate is just ignorant. I'm not saying people won't do it, but, seriously. Anyone who plays Tormod's Crypt, Relic, AND Trap in the board is going to ravage the fuck out of their other marginal matchups. Point being, this is not a successful SB strategy and people who do this will not make it very far unless Dredge happens to make up 30% or more of the field and they play it every time. The Bog will be played but it won't be much of a problem.

[SlopeeJ]

I dunno I think 5 is minimum especially if you have other graveyard decks like loam and re animator around. I have beaten a lot of decks that just bring in 4 cards vs dredge. I think 6 is the right answer to ensure you see at least 1 of the cards. As most dredge players know one relic or crypt just isn't enough

[Zappa]

One of the new creatures spoiled, Terastodon...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...10&postcount=1

Does this creature replace Woodfall Primus in our sideboard? Or does Woodfall Primus maintain the spot?

[Sevryn]

Hi, I am new to Dredge (not Magic). I have read most of this thread. I have some questions, all of which regard why one would run a specific number of a card in the deck

-Ichorid: 3/4?

-Dread Return: 2/3/4?

-Cephalid Coliseum: 3/4?

-Cabal Therapy: 3/4?

-Dread Return targets: 0/1/2?


Thanks for your time.

[Zappa]

Hi, I am new to Dredge (not Magic). I have read most of this thread. I have some questions, all of which regard why one would run a specific number of a card in the deck

Well choices mainly depends on personal preference, and the type of list one runs, however, usually, even with slight differences in the deck, we could usually agree on certain things.

Ichorid: 3/4?

Ichorid, should be something to be run a full number. It's our back up beat down plan, it helps us build tokens, it's the card that helps us pressure the opponent into blowing up their crypt or relic early. While some prefers that this be run as 3-off, I'd like to see the card ASAP, and specially with swords to plowshares and path to exiles being run by some decks, I'd definitely want to see this card and keep the pressure going.

Dread Return: 2/3/4?

While I am not opposed to having 3 DRs in the deck, as there are times, though rare, that I felt like a 3rd DR would be nice. 2 in the main deck, seems about right. I almost never really had any problems with 2, except for those rare, once in a blue moon kind of thing. However, if you are running dread return targets, then increasing the count to 3, is good. I don't think 4 main decked is something anyone should be running, unless it's one of those old extended versions.

Cephalid Coliseum: 3/4?

Some list that runs Bloodghasts had either lower the count of these, or entirely cut them. But I prefer a full package of this, while not being a rainbow land, and doesn't synergize with paradise, it still helps give the deck the explosiveness it needs.

Cabal Therapy: 3/4?

Cabal Theraphy, is something I'll always run as a full package. never 3, always 4. I also feel that if its possible to run 6 therapies, i definitely would. It's usually our main and only disruption. Disruption while being backed by a fast clock, is really nice. It's also another way of being able to fend off some hate. Pretty much with therapy you force majority of the decks to go top deck mode.

Dread Return targets: 0/1/2?

Dread Return targets, I would say is 0-1. Not having any dread return targets, except for troll is fine. However, if you wanna run 1 DR target such as Iona, then that is fine too. 0-1 is fine, i can't seem to see any light as to why you'd run 2 (or maybe more) DR targets in the deck. As that is just over kill in game 1, and not really needed, and doesn't help with game 2-3 at all.

Thanks for your time.

Your welcome.

[jimirynk]

HOLY SHIT!