azdrael i geuss i should have explaned my self a little bit more.
the point whith vial is that by the time you can play eney relavent creatures its already turn 3 or 4 which is really slow,i mean i would rather just play dudes and swing
.i also disagree whith your aguement whith chalice always being at one .
i mean they can still go off its at 1 while if you put it on zero you can effectivly shut dow there ability to win and make mana.
i am just trying out new ideas to draw cards whith the hunt.
yes c spell is randome eney better ideas im all ears.
you only board in 2 to 3 jittes in most match ups the only time you board in 4 jitts is when you play aginst a oppponit that also plays jittes so ypu can just legend rule it out
Point by point:Originally Posted by obituary 95
-1 plains and 4 fetch isn't enough to make sure your Sejiri merfolks go active.
-Running zero Wasteland and zero Mutavault makes no sense whatsoever.
-Treasure Hunt is a terrible draw engine for this deck.
-1 Counterspell is random. Try Spell Pierce, or just add another creature.
-I think Silvergill Adept is probably too good not to include some amount of them.
-Four Echoing Truth maindeck is probably too many, and since you're already somewhat splashing white, StP might be better anyways.
-I don't agree with cutting Aether Vial.
-I think that Chalice belongs in the sideboard if you use it. It doesn't make sense to maindeck it in a list that runs Cursecatcher, and you have no way to play it for one on your first turn, which just about every list that runs it maindeck can do (like they can do in Stompy decks, Stax, and AggroLoam for example). Definitely not a maindeck card for us.
-Four Jitte in the sideboard is too many-- the general consensus around here is that it's not even all that good in our problem matchups. Personally I would recommend not using it, but if you feel you must, you don't need the full four-pack.
...So yeah. I think you're sort of trying to reinvent the wheel where you don't need to be trying to do that.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I am cognizant of this situation. Luckme, I actually have made a big primer in the past, but the site had a bug that erases posts beyond a certain number of characters. It is a pretty small number too. When the OP reached that size, it simply vanished - twice. Needless to say, I have been slow to recreate the opening post that was.
However, since we are now on a new system around here, I intend to slowly build the OP back up in hopes that this problem has been resolved. Input is desired and needed from everyone. Many of us are intimately familiar with the workings of a few matchups. None of us are entirely familiar with all of them. If anyone has advice for a particular matchup, please post it so that I may include it in the OP.
danke
PS: I have begun with fancy new card tags. Ooooh.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Wait, really? You didn't just type it up in Word and then copy + paste? That's really funny actually.
But yeah, putting it in word means you can save it for future reference, as I have done with any longer posts in this thread.
I've been putting up pretty good results with this list.
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Cursecatcher
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Spell snare
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
12 Island
The dreadnoughts increase your match up against Zoo and Sligh. If you resolve a Dreadnought within the first 4 turns its usually an auto-win. They have not a single card to deal with it.
I might move to switch the Spell Snares for another Cursecatcher and 2 Jittes but the Spell Snares have been working beautifully. For now I sideboard the Jittes.
Zoo runs path/swords and pridemage g1. Not to mention Kgrip/ancient grudge out of the board.
That was I gonna say... dreadnought is not really relevant.
I hink it could increase our MU only against Burn, pretending the fact that they don't side in Shattering spree for Vial/Jitte...
there are better cards
btw I had a couple of tests with Cotv agaisnt Zoo, and for the moment it is really really not that bad! quite pretty, very surprising.
When you say pretty good results, what do you mean? MWS or tourney? Saying that dreadnought is an auto-win against zoo makes me think you don't have tested this enough... (Path, Swords, Pridemage, Krosan Grip....)
As far as the concern of Dreadnought versus Zoo. When I play against zoo there is a diff style of play. Number 1, all my merfolk become blockers and trade with their creatures. I don't care about my merfolk dying because I am trying to resolve Dreadnought. Number 2, I save counterspells for their Paths and Pridemages. If they resolve a Pridemage, I will get rid of it before playing Dreadnought or keep 2 Stifles in hand. If you play it right then Dreadnought is an issue for them. But as I said I need to adept the typical aggro plan of Merfolk and completely change my play style.
12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
//59 cards
Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Spell Pierce
2 Umezawa's Jitte
//15 cards
So this is the list I'm testing lately. I got one open slot in my main and i don't know, what to play in that slot, yet. I've tested a list with 3 Psionic Blast main, but it just didn't feel right. Most of the time i played Wake Thrasher in that slot, but it simply felt like "win more", when he hit the board.
I'm open to suggestions concerning my main and I really feel like i need some help with it, because the deck just feel's average, when playing in a tourney. It's not good, nor bad, but i don't seem to get why.
Just 19 Lands was never enough for me. I playtested merfolk with less lands to get some space for more beaters or w/e but found myself screwed more than often. 20 lands is unquestionable the right number - it's just individual decision whether you play it gamblers style (got the vial or not?) 12/4/4 or republican konservative 13/4/3 - anything besides that appears to be untender negligent.
Besides of that - good list!
I play the same md with 1-2 minor changes.
Team Legal Actions.
Since everyone is posting lists, this is what I've been testing:
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Cursecatcher
4 Adept
4 Lord
4 Reejery
4 Sovereign
4 Vial
4 Force
4 Standstill
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Echoing Truth
SB:
1 Spell Pierce
4 Relic
3 Submerge
3 Divert
2 Kira
2 Lllawan
For now I've swapped Pierce for Snare and have been loving it. There are decks which go out of their way to avoid 2cc (Chalice/Sphere based ones), which SP shines in. Also a lot of people are used to playing around Daze, and walk into SP. It also saves slots in the SB by being in the main. If my Meta had lots of Goblins and CB I'd probably go back to Snare.
SB is still experimental, but there are a number of players Merfolk now too in my area, and Llawan is more of a blowout than Wake Thrasher. I've dropped all REB/Blasts and haven't missed them that much. Submerge is for Goyf decks, Divert for Zoo & EvaGreen/Black. Casting Divert when a Goblins player cycles Gempalm is pretty good too.
Last edited by AcidFiend; 02-07-2010 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Forgot Standstill :(
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
You might want to stop doing that. Cycling isn't a spell, and neither is the trigger.
I'm pretty sure the four missing cards in your maindeck are Standstills?
Your list seems solid, but I'm really not a fan of Divert in the sideboard. I'd try Pithing Needle instead if it was me, but I seem to like Needle more than most people do these days...
Also, have you ever wished you had Stifles in the main?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Hello everyone!
I have a very good friend who is a johnny at heart (although he has not clue about Johnny/Timmy/Spike) and he created a merfolk deck around Morningtide. I believe it looks something like this:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
20 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [MOR] Grimoire Thief
4 [MOR] Merrow Witsniper
4 [MOR] Stonybrook Banneret
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [RAV] Cloudstone Curio
4 [LRW] Aquitect's Will
Now obviously this list is very debatable and most likely suboptimal in many ways. (No vial, disruption by wasteland etc.) The reason for this post is, the interaction between cloudstone curio and merrow witsniper. With cloudstone curio, another cc1 creature out, (like cursecatcher) or a cc2 whose cost ist reduced to 1 by the banneret and merrow reejerey in play you can recast the witsniper indefinitely . How? You cast the witsniper untap a land with the reejerey and pick up another 1cc creature, cast that one untap a land with reejerey and pick up the witsniper which you can recast now until the opponent is decked.
A few more things: I know this combo is very fragile, but it might be attractive, since it does not require many extra cards and you might board into it. Also it sounds as if you have to jump through a ton of hoops to get there, but I have played against the deck a few times and it develops quite naturally. This is particularly attractive since you can switch roles between aggro and combo.
Lastly I want to point out that the idea preceded the inclusion of cloudstone curio in the elf decks, really all I want to do with this post is give my friend Karl credit for a very Johnny idea that just might turn out to be useful.
So check it out.
I see a few problems with this deck.
For one, Cloudstone Curio and Witnsnipper are terrible unless you also have the Merrow Reejerey. Three card combos with two terrible elements are never going to be competitive in Legacy.
The second problem is more subtle, but Aquitect's Will is a HORRIBLE card. It's a TRIBAL + SORCERY. It gives all enemy Tarmogoyfs +2/+2 for free and does essentially nothing to benefit you (unless you have Lord of Atlantis AND your opponent is non-blue). If you just cycle it early, your opponent probably benefits a lot more from the massive 6/7 goyfs than you benefit from your islandwalking.
Hehe my bad - I hadn't actually done it, it just popped into my head as I was typing *blush*
My bad, you're right I forgot Standstill. Pithing Needle.. that old chestnut ey. I know its versatile but what functions does it fill for you that are worthy of the slots? I used to run it myself, but for reasons unknown it fell out of favour and I ditched it too. I assume they'd be good in the Lands matchup, but its not one I ever run into. Like I said I'm testing that board.
Re: Stifles, the biggest times I've really wanted them is vs. Goblins to prevent Ringleader/SCG shenanigans. Thats online though; IRL its not something thats played locally. If it was I'd play a different deck hehe.
Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
Learning: Pact SI
In storage: Enchantress
@ Forbiddian:
Thank you for looking at what I posted and responding to it. Now, please don't take this the wrong way, maybe I did not make myself clear:
I know the deck is way suboptimal (aquitects will etc.) The only relevant thing is the (as stated) fragile combo, which is an original idea of a friend of mine. The decklist may have been a mistake, I should have just pointed out the combo.
I do not know whether that combo is good, but it might be (e.g. transformative sideboard). I just wanted to put it our there and give my friend Karl credit for its inception.
I don't own a merfolk deck and I am not the greatest player and I do not often attend tournaments. So by posting this idea here, I figured someone interested might test it.
I do not disagree with your assessment that the cards are bad by themselves, but the few times I played against the deck I lost a surprising amount of time (ok with T2 decks: affinity, burn and a budget sui black version) to the switch between aggro and combo.
Damn, now I am defending the combo, which was not my plan: just want to put it out there and maybe someone is interested in testing and thereby having some empirical basis how to judge it.
As far as the combo being brought up. It's horrible, plain and simple. There is no way it would ever see play in legacy..ever. That is more a multi-player casual combo.
On a better note, I have done more testing with Dreadnought, I have come to the conclusion that Dreadnought is good in this deck, however not the best choice. The only time it will ever be a complete blowout is against burn which is hugely diminished in numbers in recent tournaments. Dreadnought can be crazy good game 1 but after game 1 it really isn't that good due to the mass amount of artifact hate in the format including Krosan Grip which will be in any competative deck containing green.
Dreadnought does not belong in this deck unless you have a strangely high number of mono red aggro decks in your meta.
Alright, I guess I'll start this matchup grind with "A" for Affinity.
Success of the Affinity/Merfolk matchup depends highly on your ability to contain Affinity's beginning, and their Big 3 most powerful cards throughout the match: Arcbound Ravager, Master of Etherium, and Cranial Plating. Affinity's explosive start tends to come mainly from a first turn Vial or even worse, Ornithopter and spring-leaf drum. Although they're overextending their early game, do not let this happen! It'll be much harder to control the match if they are essentially a mana up on you. This combined with an artifact land enables them to produce a Frogmite up to the first turn and a Myr Enforcer/Master of Etherium the second. It also instantly gives them the all the colors they need. If you have a daze/pithing needle and they're on the draw, use it on the Springleaf drum. If the Affinity player has a Darksteel Citadel, they will use it the first turn to avoid being Wasteland-ed and to set up an artifact for their Glimmervoid. Variants tend to splash red if they're not using AEther vial, or green or white if they are. If you see an early Great Furnace , start saving your Counterspells for potential Flings/Shrapnel Blasts, as they will target your lords. Continue to minimize the the Big 3's disruptive capabilities while pumping out your lords, if you survive the initial wave, this game can go on for awhile.
After the sideboard, Affinity likes to put it Ethersworn Canonist, Red Elemental Blasts, and definitely Pithing Needle for your vials. Your worst case scenario are sweepers such as engineered explosives or something like Firespout, depending on how much swarm they're anticipating. In response, take out standstill (it's too slow to be effective), Daze (not very effective against Affinity mechanic, they go around it or sideboard thorns, and maybe some Cursecatchers depending on your sideboard options because there's usually not enough instants/sorcery spells to make it worth it.
Your Common sideboard includes, Spell Pierce, disenchant (spot removal,) Jitte for Disciple of the Vault and weenie friends( also forces Arcbound Ravager to activate, stifle ( Arcbound Ravager), and my favorites, Back to Basics and Pithing Needle for vial springleaf drum and trickery such as Engineering Explosives, are usually the most devastating that I normally sideboard. Control cards like Sower of Temptation and Vedalken shackles are also nice but the later is also Pithing needle-able.
Furthermore, if you're splashing white, Affinity rarely uses basic lands, making Path to Exile wonderfully efficient! Absolute law is definitely worth it if they're splashing red because although they'll probably only be packing 3 or so burn cards pre-sideboard, splashing this color also can imply there's a good chance are they're also packing some blue hate post-board (Red Elemental Blasts/Pyroblasts). One can't be certain though, the scary thing about Affinity is they usually have 2-3 multi-mana lands, Springleaf drums and vials, so they could and will surprise you in the sideboard with off color sideboard.
The big anti-Affinity sideboard cards, if for some reason you're suspecting it in your meta game, is Energy Flux, Kataki War Mage, Serenity, and Null Rod. They are all time tested game winners. However, you probably won't be expecting this deck, as, ironically it only seems to survive in meta games that aren't combo intensive, or hated out. If you expect affinity, they probably expect that you expect affinity, and they won't bring it. Unless they are poor, new, or just like having heavy things thrown at them... wait this isn't mirrodin standard anymore. My scars have healed.
Tips:
-Watch out if they attack with multiple weaker creatures, have a Cranial Plating on one of them, and the ability to produce two black mana, they will re-equip the cranial plating on to something else.
- Key counter targets anytime are Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, a turn 2 through 4 Myr Enforcer, Atog (red splash) and Ethersworn Canonist (white splash)
-Remember you typically won't be sideboarding for Affinity, hence why most of my sideboard suggestions were cards not only applicable to affinity, but other aggro archtypes in general; however affinity will be sideboarding for you, as is part of the bane of being a DTB. Therefore don't be caught off guard to see cards such as Firesprout or E. Plagues which may hinder affinity's speed a bit, but will hurt you more than themselves. Affinity is also really vulnerable to counterspells and removal, they know this, and will sideboard to protect against it. But you can use this to your advantage and you can anticipate the anti blue cards for the second game, try to play more conservatively the second game in its anticipation.
-Affinity's creature power is unmatched against Merfolk's creature power but your trickery and counter spells can (like many decks) slow them down enough for your lords to be effective until the lords/Wake Thrasher/whatever+jitte can finish them. Always remember, they're the beat-down.
What's next, agro loam?
Last edited by luckme10; 02-08-2010 at 06:21 PM.
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