All B/R update speculation.

[MattH]

Mask is on the list because it lets you play dudes with no drawback (like, but not limited to Phyrexian Dreadnought, Lord of Tresserhorn, and Avatar of Discord. Aside from that, it's a rules clusterfuck, and we're better off without trying to explain to noobs why my face-down card is not a morph, and why I can flip it whenever I want for free.

You can't actually flip it whenever you want (anymore).

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=201199

[Nightmare]

That just goes to show how fucking stupid the rules on that card have become. The guys used to be uncounterable, too.

[Oibade]

It is true that they rarely say cards are banned for money reasons, but it's not true that that's never the reason. Or that it shouldn't be. Any game's worth is largely determined by accessibility. The increasingly staggering cost of Legacy is making it unaccessible.

The Dual/Force issue needs to be addressed as well. These cards all need to be reprinted or banned to deal with their mounting cost. It's just my feeling that the others can be reprinted, and that Goyf really just needs to be banned. Not least because Standard shouldn't be afflicted with that bullshit again.

You are probably right.

But I am skeptical about Wizards going to reprint Eternal staples in order to attract more players into the format, since its interests lie in formats like Extended or Standard. Unless they expect to draw more players into these formats by reprinting broken cards, or printing even more broken new cards.

[Aleksandr]

You can't actually flip it whenever you want (anymore).

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=201199

That just goes to show how fucking stupid the rules on that card have become. The guys used to be uncounterable, too.

I don't have a smallest clue what on earth does the card do.

"...by some ammount of, or all of, the mana... if you do, you may... creature that spell becomes as it resolves...has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it's turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage or damaged dealt and is deleted, or becomes tapped and/or untapped or deleted. Or has not become tapped, turned face up other than that creature that spell becomes resolved becomes untapped and unless otherwise stated. That, and than an opponent of that creature resolved spell controller stifles standstill and is headdesked.
Remove this card from your deck before playing unless playing for an ante."

[Mayk0l]

I don't have a smallest clue what on earth does the card do.

"...by some ammount of, or all of, the mana... if you do, you may... creature that spell becomes as it resolves...has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it's turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage or damaged dealt and is deleted, or becomes tapped and/or untapped or deleted. Or has not become tapped, turned face up other than that creature that spell becomes resolved becomes untapped and unless otherwise stated. That, and than an opponent of that creature resolved spell controller stifles standstill and is headdesked.
Remove this card from your deck before playing unless playing for an ante."

+1

I have never understood what Illusionary Mask actually does.

[Solaran_X]

+1

I have never understood what Illusionary Mask actually does.

Illusionary Mask is basically Morph. Only instead of paying 3 to play it facedown as a Morph, you pay X where X is equal to the card's casting cost plus any additional value. To flip the creatures, you paid the Morph cost. Through Illusionary Mask, the Morph flip cost is 0. So to play a Tarmogoyf through Illusionary Mask, I would have to pay at least 1G. If I was playing a Bant deck with Mask, I could cast Tarmogoyf, Qasali Pridemage, and Rhox War Monk for WUG each to confuse my opponent.

[majikal]

The Dual/Force issue needs to be addressed as well. These cards all need to be reprinted or banned to deal with their mounting cost. It's just my feeling that the others can be reprinted, and that Goyf really just needs to be banned. Not least because Standard shouldn't be afflicted with that bullshit again.

This x999. Minus one for the part about Goyf.

If the Reserve List ever goes away, it will be because of this issue. It's a paradox for WotC in that the Reserve List exists to protect the collectible value of certain cards, but if those cards have value mostly because of their playability (ie Duals and FoW), but are too expensive to maintain a healthily balanced format, banning them would impact their value far more negatively than a reprint. It is much more beneficial to feed the growing demand with more supply than to cut off that demand at the source.

IMO, Duals + Force are not ever going to be on the table for Banning, considering that they are essentially the main draw to the format.

[Aggro_zombies]

If the old duals got banned, it's likely that most decks currently using duals would move towards an Extended-style mana base with Ravnica duals, spiking prices on those. Granted, most of them are around $10 right now, and they're easier to acquire, but it's still something to consider.

There's also the fact that banning Force would cause formatpocalypse.

[MMogg]

The Dual/Force issue needs to be addressed as well. These cards all need to be reprinted or banned to deal with their mounting cost. It's just my feeling that the others can be reprinted, and that Goyf really just needs to be banned. Not least because Standard shouldn't be afflicted with that bullshit again.

I think you have too narrow a view of "reprinted". Box sets, dual decks, inserts (time shifted), etc. are other ways in which cards can be reprinted without necessarily becoming Standard/Extended legal. As I said previously, they easily could have put Force of Will into those Coldsnap preconstructed decks, but there is always an MSRP problem. Inserts may be the best way to overcome that problem. Hell, they could even make them ugly as sin, like reprinting dual lands that look like the Anthologies cards so that the originals would maintain value while allowing ugly cheapos for people who just want to play.

First off, what cards have been banned in the past solely for cost reasons? Provide names and justifications provided by Wizards (they always do an article after a Banned/Restricted announcement saying why).

Very sneaky. Ask a question about past bannings while originally arguing that cards also ought not stay banned for financial reasons.

Price should NEVER be a reason to ban a card, or keep a card banned. Cards should only be banned if they warp a format to the point where it's Deck A versus Deck B designed to beat Deck A. Such as Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard.

So, I take it you're in favour of unbanning Mana Drain? Bazaar and Library are sufficiently broken as are the free mana artifacts, but Drain? Format warping? I don't think so. So let's unban it?

[Solaran_X]

Very sneaky. Ask a question about past bannings while originally arguing that cards also ought not stay banned for financial reasons.

I don't see what is so sneaky about it. I asked the people who claimed Wizards banned cards for financial reasons to tell me which cards and link the justification article Wizards publishes shortly after every banned and restricted announcement.

So, I take it you're in favour of unbanning Mana Drain? Bazaar and Library are sufficiently broken as are the free mana artifacts, but Drain? Format warping? I don't think so. So let's unban it?

Before M10, I would have supported unbanned Mana Drain. Post-M10, I no longer am 100% sure it would be safe in Legacy. Bazaar and Workshop need to stay banned for reasons of their impact on the metagame. Library of Alexandria, however, I feel could safely come off the list. The only decks that could abuse Library are heavy Control style decks, and dedicated Control has become a major niche deck in Legacy anymore. With Library, we could see Control become a viable strategy again.

[MMogg]

I don't see what is so sneaky about it. I asked the people who claimed Wizards banned cards for financial reasons to tell me which cards and link the justification article Wizards publishes shortly after every banned and restricted announcement.


Before M10, I would have supported unbanned Mana Drain. Post-M10, I no longer am 100% sure it would be safe in Legacy. Bazaar and Workshop need to stay banned for reasons of their impact on the metagame. Library of Alexandria, however, I feel could safely come off the list. The only decks that could abuse Library are heavy Control style decks, and dedicated Control has become a major niche deck in Legacy anymore. With Library, we could see Control become a viable strategy again.

It's sneaky because you never addressed any true reasons why cards should never be banned or not unbanned for financial reasons. IBA asked quite plainly "why" and your response was for others to cite instances of previous bannings based on value. Too me, that is a shift away from supporting your own statement by asking a further question; hence, sneaky.

So, unban Drain is what you're saying? And Library? What percentage of surity (yeah I made that up) do you need to unban a card?

[Solaran_X]

It's sneaky because you never addressed any true reasons why cards should never be banned or not unbanned for financial reasons. IBA asked quite plainly "why" and your response was for others to cite instances of previous bannings based on value. Too me, that is a shift away from supporting your own statement by asking a further question; hence, sneaky.

So, unban Drain is what you're saying? And Library? What percentage of surity (yeah I made that up) do you need to unban a card?

Actually, I said I would have supported the unbanning of Mana Drain pre-M10 because of the degree of "danger" in used it without a mana dump, or take some hefty mana burn. Post-M10, it becauses the absolute best "paid for" counter in Legacy and very likely tied with Force for the top slot (and, ironically enough, Mana Drain has become almost unplayed in Vintage since the introduction of Spell Pierce).

As for Library of Alexandria, look at the card. It is clearly a Control-style card. It's designed for long term card advantage based on maintaining a full hand, and full hands are typically only maintained by heavy Control decks (Supreme Blue, Planewalker Control, and Landstill). Aggro-Control strategies tend to empty their hands in the mid-game, and Aggro decks tend to dump their hands in the first 3 or 4 turns. And Combo tries to win before the advantages of Library would come into play. And dedicated Control strategies are very rare in Legacy today. Library may actually help revitalize the Control aspect of Legacy and further diversify the format.

[MMogg]

Actually, I said I would have supported the unbanning of Mana Drain pre-M10 because of the degree of "danger" in used it without a mana dump, or take some hefty mana burn. Post-M10, it becauses the absolute best "paid for" counter in Legacy and very likely tied with Force for the top slot (and, ironically enough, Mana Drain has become almost unplayed in Vintage since the introduction of Spell Pierce).

Actually, you said post-M10 you aren't 100% sure, so you never really came down on ban or unban. And again, this statement quoted here also doesn't come down on either side of the debate, but simple states both sides. I don't think Vintage is a good comparison with Legacy. The difference between Vintage and Legacy are a mass of broken non-creature spells, precisely what Spell Pierce is designed to target. Legacy is by and large much more creature based or at least, doesn't possess the brokeness that can be found in Vintage (such as Yawgmoth's Will). As you said, Drain in Legacy would probably see play, and so are you comfortable with dedicated control decks needing to shell out probably more than $400 for a playset of Drains?

That brings us to Library. So, by your account, Library should be unbanned, and it seems that since you don't think Drain would necessarily warp Legacy but add diversity you'd be all for that being unbanned. Library, as you said, would only be played in dedicated control decks. Do you not think that the top control deck in Legacy would then contain 3-4 Library and 4 Drains, making the 7-8 cards alone probably nearly a grand or more considering price jumps should they be unbanned. Isn't that a little crazy?

Also, I used multiple Library in a casual Survival deck and they are broken as hell. The thing about the necessary hand size... when you are drawing an extra 2 cards a turn from 2 Library, it starts meaning less. Draw for your turn, plus 2... yeah, broken. That was just my own personal experience with them anyway.

[majikal]

I think Drains would be pretty safe to unban as far as power level goes, but it would create an even bigger barrier to entry into the format. Although, if they completely drop off the map in Vintage, it might be nice to give them a new home.

Library, on the other hand, is just bonkers. No way it should ever be unbanned.

[Forbiddian]

Solaran_X: Wizard's goal is to create a fun game, not stick to some retarded purity mantra that letting the price affect their decision somehow ruins the game. Attendance is one of the main things that makes a format fun, and high attendance also gets Wizards a profit.

I have no idea how you got that idea, and historically cost barriers have been a strong reason for bannings.


To a lot of people, price is a real concern, and there's a strong sense in Vintage at least that "if you shell out enough money, you win." More than other formats at least there's the idea that money buys wins and not skill. Even back when I played Vintage and the best decks ran still under $1000. Of course, if people are even on money, then you see skill, but it takes a real fluke/fuckup for Black Lotus, Recall, Timewalk, and the Moxen not to beat an unpowered deck who would be strictly improved with another thousand dollars.

I would probably still play Vintage if it weren't for the fact that nobody else plays it. It's hard to find weekly sanctioned legacy events and it's hard as fuck to find a weekly Vintage event anymore. There might be some on the East Coast still, but three very stable events in Norcal with 30+ players a week when I was younger are completely dried up now. And I don't think there are any sanctioned Vintage events -- like ever. Every tournament I see posted is at least proxy 5 and usually more like proxy 15.

It's much more fun to play in a competitive tournament with 20 or 30 players than one with 6. Anything that directly affects attendance (like cost to play the format) should be a primary concern to Wizards.

[MattH]

Illusionary Mask is basically Morph. Only instead of paying 3 to play it facedown as a Morph, you pay X where X is equal to the card's casting cost plus any additional value. To flip the creatures, you paid the Morph cost. Through Illusionary Mask, the Morph flip cost is 0.

No, it is NOT like morph, at least not anymore. You cannot just flip it over for whenever you want.

Also, apparently I agree with Forbiddian, and will be riding my aerial suidae home from work.

[ddt15]

Mana Drain is debatable. It could revitalize true control. Price is not an issue either as I think Tarmo's are nearly as expensive as Drains now. On the other hand it might end up fueling some unstoppable Gifts deck.

[MMogg]

Mana Drain is debatable. It could revitalize true control. Price is not an issue either as I think Tarmo's are nearly as expensive as Drains now. On the other hand it might end up fueling some unstoppable Gifts deck.

It's not a good idea to compare pre-banned prices to post-banned prices. Look at this example of Entomb. Pre-ban, it was a $5 card. Post-ban, it's over $20. I expect Mana Drain would also rise exponentially were it to be unbanned, particularly if it turned out to be a card that heavily impacted the format.

[markbris]

when is the next update for the banned/restricted list?

[jrsthethird]

Should be March 19th (they aim for the 20th of the month but since it's not a business day they release it early). Anyone know if it is immediately effective, or what?