I can guarantee you that I have met just as many douche nozzles at Legacy tournaments as I have at T2 tournaments. The whole "Legacy is the nicest community" meme is mythical, because we're all Magic players; one section of the player base preferring Format X to everything else has zero effect on their likability, etc. I think the majority of people who feel this way have limited experience with non-Legacy events; it's something that is based on personal experience and is colored by perception, so it shouldn't be accepted as fact. We all play the same game; just because you play Legacy (primarily, if not only) doesn't make you a better or nicer person than Shorty Shitstain the PTQ player.Originally Posted by andrew77
Making sweeping generalizations like that hurts not just yourself, but the community, and, by extension, the format. It's not a special club with a super secret handshake designed to keep membership to a minimum; at least, it shouldn't be. You want to community and the format to grow, because more players = more tournaments, and so on. Growth is a positive thing.
But if you prefer to drink the "Legacy is Made Up of Mature/Nice People" Kool-Aid, that is your prerogative.
As far as the reprint conundrum, I think it should be somewhere in the middle between FTV style and just an all-out reprint set. They definitely should NOT be done in foil; honestly, I feel the duals should be white-bordered and done with the old art/frame, but maybe that's just me.
Is card availability really that much of a problem?
Everywhere i go traders have stocks of duals, and its the same for sites like SCG. Granted, they aren't cheap; but if you aren't willing to spend like 35 $ on a dual land; I feel that legacy isn't the format for you. And this isn't about me being an elitist prick, for me a higher cost is just part of the format, plain and simple.
More then likely there will be alot of players attending the next 2 Legacy GP's, so it seems to me that Legacy is already big enough. Sure, it would be nice if Legacy could continue to grow; but would it be worth it? Somehow I seriously doubt it.
The story is different for more obscure cards like Imperial Recruiter or Tabernacle, but last time I checked those werent staples anyway.
Anyway I am strongly against reprinting, no matter whether you call it FTV: legacy or Chronicles 2 or whatever. The value of the original cards would literally plummet. Now i am not gonna lose my sleep over it, but needless to say I would lose alot of money I invested through the years.
But for me the biggest concern would be Wotc's credibility. I mean, if they start printing duals; where will it end? Soon people will start crying about how they will want to play vintage too, and then voilą there you have it; foil moxen.
Every card that gets reprinted is a stab through not only the heart of players who have been playing older formats for years, but also through the heart of the format itself.
As a Legacy Player for close to 12 years here, I'm going to have to say that reprinting the format (Chronicles 2) would probably be the most interesting thing that Wizards could actually do to improve the format as a whole. Personally I would prefere Wizards to actually reprinting of the old booster boxes to bring them to current print runs (I know, it's impossible to think about this).
I have had most of my Duals since Extended banned them. I picked up Goyfs, Dark Confidants and Mox Diamonds for 'dirt cheap' early since I knew it was a playable card in Legacy. If Wizards decided to nuke the secondary market, I WOULD WELCOME IT. This is a hobby, not a lifestyle like some people consider it.
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That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.
I understand that the comparison was off, my apologies. But the thought is still there, maybe not to current standards but somewhere comparable. For the record, I don't care about the secondary market. I pick up cards as they come out and don't go out of my way to either pimp or go to excesses. Yes, I do trade and buy cards, but more as a casual player and not some cracked out type 2 players (some that I know have gone out of thier way to do all of those things spending that $2,000 for that deck).
And Andrew like I said before, I don't care of Wizards Nukes the Secondary Market, I would welcome it.
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I wouldn't. I have spend quite some cash on my cards, so I'm happy they rise in value. That makes it a reasonable investment. If they were to drop in value, I'll be losing alot of money, that's when I would start to worry. As long as cards rise in value, you can safely buy them, knowing they'll be worth more in the future so you can sell them again without having any loss.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I personally was appalled when they kept printing versions of Monopoly. I mean it's a game about investing and capital. It should be a safe investment, right? Who would have known that people actually played games for fun instead of just speculating on them like normal folks?
I'm glad Wizards of the Coast still gets it though. Nobody wants to play with their cards; we just want to make money from them.
This may be the worst attempt at an analogy presented in the topic thus far, which is no small feat.
Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results
Thank you for posting this. It seems to me that plenty of Magic players believe that anyone who spends $40 a piece on 40 Loyal Retainers has earned a divine right to make a killing. Speculation involves chance, why does Magic have to be different?
Also, for advocates of the "so what card X costs Y, suck it up" argument, what happens when Trops go from $45 to $95 a piece? How many people are going to be able to continuously suck it up? Not all of us have ridiculous jobs that pay ridiculous money so we can drive the ridiculous cars like the ones talked about in the car thread in mish-mash. Legacy should NOT be for only the elitest "I spend $200+ on Magic a month" portion of the player base.
Also, and this is a biggie, please stop it with the whole "Legacy players are more mature" nonsense. I have run into so many cry-manbabies who whined that I trounced them with dredge, that a blew up their last land, countered their spell, or in plenty of places, people I've played Tarmogoyf against. In my experience, Magic players are by and large immature, regardless of what format they play. The amount of petty bickering and trolling that goes on in this very website is testament to this.
Ich bin aueslander und sprechen nicht gut Deutsch
You really think Force of Will would even get played in today's standard? I play Legacy; I know how good it can be in the meta, but in a slower standard, a 5 mana counter or a 2-card counter aren't what the format can use.
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This should be coming out today right?
If only limited reprints are printed to attract new players, those new players may add fuel to the speculation of the other non-reprinted cards. The new players cant play on just one set of staples, (ie duals) they'd need the goyfs too. That would mean even more of a rise in goyf prices.
For someone so critical of other people's posts, this one sure is a failure. Nobody ever said all of the formats attracted the same age demographic. The level of maturity is roughly the same; while Standard has its actual, spoiled children, Legacy has spoiled man-children. You get people with high-paying jobs and tons of cash to blow (or extreme fiscal irresponsibility), with all the emotional development of a twelve-year-old.
I guess if this requires further explanation, the next step would be developing a way to test maturity, and performing the test on young children and then on adults with jobs, and comparing the results. (SPOILER: The test isn't actually required, adults on average are more mature than children and no one will dispute this).
To not be completely off-topic, I was just echoing others' sentiments that the cost of entry goes a long way toward keeping kids out. It seemed like they were crucified for saying this, but what they said was true and I can't honestly hold it against an adult when they say that they don't want to interact with children in their spare time. For instance I'd much rather play in my 12-team softball league (where we're all adults and can drink while playing, have adult discussions, etc), than to make it into a 24-team league by allowing 13 year olds.
That is complete bullshit. Every expensive card I own, I've acquired in the last 10 years, and 90% of them in the last five, and I would love it to death to see all of them reprinted, in such quantities that anyone who wants them can have them (I'm talking $10 Underground Seas). I derive no pleasure from beating an opponent because they couldn't afford to buy a better deck. That's as unsatisfying a win as cheating at Candyland.
But maybe you didn't know. Maybe you've managed to go through 20+ pages of this thread without figuring out that even people who own lots of valuable cards want them reprinted. Ignorance is not a sin, but be advised that what you are saying is a complete falsehood.
When I buy a card, what I'm paying for is the ability to use that card in games of Magic (or for certain collectible cards like miscuts, because they're cool to look at/show off). I'm NOT paying for the chance to resell it at a profit, even if I get that option automatically. If the market price of a Bayou jumps to $100 or falls to $5, it doesn't affect me one bit, because I never intended to sell them anyway. I bought the cards because I want to play with them, and as long as I can do that, I'm getting my money's worth.
Uh, did you miss the fact that a 14-year-old won the Standard portion, and all but won the Legacy portion of the SCG Dallas 5k? You need to check your prejudices at the door, buddy.
Right the fuck on. In fact the nicest players I know are almost exclusively draft players, or players who play any and every format (standard, extended, legacy, vintage, draft, EDH, Type Four, cube, casual, Stacks, everything). As a percentage, Legacy has about the same amount of assholery as Standard.
What exactly do you think an investment is? If you're investing, you implicitly accept the risk of losing money. Anyone who buys cards with the intention of making a profit has ZERO standing to complain if they lose money on that investment.
No. Wrong. Cards would be worthless to RESELL, but they would still be worthwhile to PLAY WITH. It's hard to take your opinions seriously if you can't distinguish between market price and utility.
That's a bad analogy, because 13-year-olds can't actually compete with grown adults in sporting competitions. Even the most emotionally mature kids (and I have known plenty of younger people who are/were more mature at 14 than most 22-year-olds) gets whomped by the bigger, stronger, dumber asshole college grad.
I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.
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I've shelled out for some expensive cards, like FBB Duals as well as revised ones, Mana Drains, multiple playsets of FoW, etc. Why? Because I want to play with them. But, I would be thrilled to death if every single one of those cards were reprinted so I'd have more opponents to play with. The higher the prices climb, the more people sell out in certain areas, and the less people en masse will play the game, until you're left with small pockets of six here, four there, that only ever make it out to 5k events, assuming they don't box up the collection completely or keep it at the kitchen table.
There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.
Last edited by majikal; 02-11-2010 at 07:29 PM.
Yeah, but $10 underground seas? That's more than I'm willing to eat for the good of the format. I guess I'm a selfish dick.
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Why does it matter how low they go honestly? The whole purpose is to play with them. Just look at Pithing Needle. It used to be a $20 card and was/is a staple in Sideboards of every format. But they reprinted it twice. It's $3 now, and nobody is complaining, because it's still a good card to play with.
I guess the point is that it's better for the format as a whole for the cards that could be considered "staples" to keep being printed, while fringe powerhouses like Tabernacle or The Abyss or whatever retain the rarity and collectibility. This is exactly the reason why the new duals in Standard weren't printed at Mythic. It would price far too many people out of the format.
Let me start by apologizing for speaking in absolutes. I thought it was obvious that "Everyone. Literally." was intended as hyperbole, since there are always going to be some people who believe little green men live in their television sets and some who falsely believe that reprinting duals would be a good decision by Wizards. I guess all I can say to that is, you would almost definitely be singing a different tune if they did reprint them and if you didn't, you would be in a very small (but on The Source, clearly very vocal) minority.
I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are. It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems. Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them? I know it sounds like most people on the Source want reprints and to hell with the price, but even in Magic's short history, we have a shining example of what happens when the value of cards drops because of reprints: Chronicles. From what I understand, more people left the game in disgust after Chronicles than at any other point in its history. I know it must sound ridiculous that historical fact and scientific theory conflict with your idea that duals for everyone would solve the problem of price hikes, but I personally find it difficult to argue with the patently obvious.
Great success!
Pithing Needle was never on the Reserved List, and I didn't buy 65 of them.
It's easy to say "the whole point is to play with them," if you live in Happy Land. For me, it's nice to know that I can turn around and sell some or all of my duals for as much or more than I paid for them, in a pinch. I've had to do it before.
But, like I said, maybe I'm just a selfish dick.
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