I respectfully disagree. Eternal staples are the flagship representatives of the entire game. Ask any magic player who knows anything what the p9 are, and I'd bet my home that they would have heard of them, with an added dash of mystique. Reprinting eternal staples, and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that right now for reasons I'll get to later, is like putting up a neon sign denoting that every single player out there is fair game. Reprinting a mox, looked at in a vacuum, is unlikely to harm more players than Standard manabase costs going up to $500 for viable decks, but you can be sure that the fallout will be a lot greater for the former.Originally Posted by Nocco
On availability, I don't think this is a huge issue. Most legacy staples are now available in what I believe to be larger quantities since prices have risen recently, but they've always been available online even before the recent spikes in prices. The issue isn't really one of availability, it is one of price and the accessibility that is denied as a result of price. That immediately says that any solution that wants to introduce more new players to eternal formats needs to address the price issue, not necessarily that of availability, even though economics links both together. Thus, any solution that creates new quantities of staples but which does not reduce the prices of those cards is likely to do very little or nothing but increase the number of ways in which the doors are shut in players' faces. That basically means that if wotc wants to solve this issue, they likely have to use non-foil, white bordered reprints in varying quantities depending on the cards in question.
That basically leads to the next issue as a result of reprinting. Good? Bad? My opinion is that everyone needs to understand that magic is popular and alive today BOTH because of the collectibility of the cards as well as the playability of the game. Not just the playability. Not just the card values and collectibility. Speaking solely from a player's point of view and taking the interests of that side alone isn't fair, and speaking solely from a collector's/speculator's/dealer's point of view is basically asking for a golden handshake where none exists. Scrapping the reserve list is one thing, reprinting eternal staples and signalling that basically every card is possibly up for reprinting is another. I have stated before that my opinion is that a corporation's first and foremost duty is to create value for its shareholders (Hasbro is public), which is intrinsically tied with its bottom line, but the possible ramifications of reprinting staples are huge. It isn't just about being Chronicles mk II. Chronicles created chaos despite tanking values that were high due to scarcity and collectibility (like the LG legends). Reprinting staples goes far beyond that -- it'd basically be like what would have happened if top-tier cards of those days like Juzam or the Moxen were reprinted in Chronicles, with the possibility of future reprinting very real. Wotc (and Hasbro) have no legal culpability if they abolish and violate their gentleman's agreement, but the loss of goodwill and confidence could be huge. Look at the issues that Toyota is facing due to its sudden drop in manufacturing quality -- its seeming violation of the promise of absolute, top-of-the-line safety excellence is creating a lot more intangible issues that go beyond the costs involved with recalling a number of cars and suspending some factory work. The same risks apply for wotc. They WILL increase sales by reprinting staples, but as long as they state that they are reprinting said staples for the sake of increased availability and the addressing of price issues, a slew of issues might arise that make the costs higher than the benefits.
Before I get slammed for not caring about the health of the format, I do. I would like to see new players taking up legacy and vintage. I just think that as most people seem to be in favour of reprints, there are risks involved. It isn't just about making a few reprints and then we get a Carebears and rainbows (and Tarmogoyfs, since that bastard is everywhere) kind of scenario. I'm also going to add in the caveat that I don't mind losing card value (a lot of what I own aren't normal cards anyway), and that I'm not in the game to make money. I think that something needs to be done to address price levels and accessibility, but abolishing the reserved list, changing the unwritten reprint policy to allow all cards to be potentially reprinted, and then reprinting staples is dangerous. Wizards can easily take baby steps by reprinting portal or starter cards first, as well as seriously exploring the printing of sanctioned proxies (only legal in eternal), with their usage capped to a small number in each eternal deck. No point betting the future of the game on an issue which might be solved with less drastic measures.
On a sidenote, I've also read certain statements (not necessarily just here but on salvation as well), that it's fine if people who are in the game to make a profit are burned, and that speculators are basically evil. What? Without having to point out that it sounds incredibly bitter. If someone has the correct knowledge and information access, and is willing to spend time making arbitrage or speculative profits while taking on the risks involved (eg price changes that cause losses), fine with me. They provide liquidity to the market and help dealers to survive. It isn't the same situation as with Standard and Extended players who constantly endure paper losses due to rotation, as the aims of those segments are different anyway. While it isn't conclusive evidence, a walk down to salvation will also show that plenty of the people who feel that speculators can be burnt are creating threads identifying possible sleepers and buying playsets of cards like Eye of Ugin "in case they rise". Meh.
Last edited by Occam; 02-12-2010 at 10:01 AM.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Please, stop saying that starter/portal should be reprinted, no they shouldn't ever, their scarcity is is far from being the main issue here or an issue at all. I tend to agree the rest though.
With what exactly? Because I'm positive that us Eternal players aren't who WotC is catering to. We don't buy every single from the new set to put in our T2 decks. We don't crack boxes upon boxes looking for a shiny mythic to put in our Treefolk Kraken deck. We buy maybe 5 cards from a new set if they're Legacy playable. Casual players and, to a lesser extent, Standark players are who WotC mainly cares about pleasing (*COUGH*Mythic Rares*COUGH*).
Although I do believe that you bring up a good point with the whole Toyota customer backlash/loss of faith point. If WotC does infact do something like FTV: P9, the customer backlash and loss of faith will indeed be pretty big, but I don't think it will be that big of a deal, seeing as the people who it affects most are mostly a minority. Kitchen table players could care less about this shit.
You don't get it, do you? If they reprinted the Power 9, in a box set or as reprints or something. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM WOULD COLLAPSE. Magic is not just a card game: if it were, you would be able to buy a box and see every card represented there, like Munchkin or Fluxx or Guillotine. Instead, it's a collectible card game. Without scarcity, there's really no collectibility, and the value of every single magic card-not just the P9-would tank. Because it would show that wizards could just print whatever the hell they want, making previous gradations of rarity worthless.
Scarcity is the main reason starter and portal are expensive. There is absolutely no reason why fringe legacy cards like imperial recruiter, grim tutor et al are expensive if not for scarcity -- it sure as anything isn't playability. What, in your eyes, is the main issue then?
I'm not disagreeing that Wizards probably values the Standard and Extended community more. I'm disagreeing with what you said about Wizards screwing eternal over, because as far as reprints go, eternal staples are exactly the cards that Wizards cannot afford to willfully reprint. It isn't that Wizards treats eternal positively by choice (even though there have been cards designed FOR eternal in recent sets), but that Wizards may not be able to treat eternal badly in this particular area.
I believe that a FTV: P9 is exactly the kind of solution that is like watching a chicken getting slaughtered at a circus. No fun for you, no fun for the butcher, and certainly no fun for the chicken. If they were to follow the previous FTV installments, regardless of what the MSRP is, you better believe that the prices will be astronomical anyway, and unless you believe that a lack of cards is the issue for P9 instead of price, introducing foil P9 isn't going to solve anything but will instead cause said lack of faith and piss the Standard community off further.
Kitchen table players aren't really the issue here then. They don't really care if cards are reprinted, and they don't really care about being able to play sanctioned eternal either. It works both ways. Plus, plenty of casual players have eternal staples. They just don't play eternal constructed.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
As it s a collectible game, there are no reason to print those scarce promotional sets again. Not everyone can afford them? Seriously i don't care and no one should. Those are extremly low printed cards (compared to the rest of the other sets) and none of those is broken enough that you need them in ever single deck. Imperial is played in only one deck, Loyal Retainers is only needed *1 in one deck, grim tutor isn't even played, ravages of war is just a fancy thing in your deck and that goes for every cards of those extensions. So my main issue about those sets is : there is no issue at all so it is pointless & irrelevant to wish for their reprint. If i follow your statement they also should reprint Juzam and all those really expensive, scarce but yet not that playbable cards.
The main problem is most of the people here seems to have played legacy for ages, and yet realise just now that Underground sea or Mox diamond are good cards so they have to buy them for the "nowadays" price and not the "for ages" one.
Every perspective on this issue has pretty much been covered so far in this thread so I won't waste space and reiterate what's already written here other than say that I would fully support reprinting of rare sought after cards in a severely limited run. I think we can all agree that the FTV series is kind of a joke and despite some saying it was impossible for them to pick up (at retail), I really don't give a shit about that.
What I would like to see would be a good selection of playable and nostalgic cards printed non-foil (probably new frame) released only to B&M stores with a requirement that people only get say 1 pack per DCI #. This get a bit tricky as there are all sorts of shifty stores out there and there is likely to be some of these that make it onto the secondary market at a significant increase in price. It might be more realistic to release the set in the old 75 card tourney packs so you at least get a good selection from the set. There should be more than four tiers of rarity for these but obviously with all cards being "playable" you should never feel like you got shafted.
In summary:
Awesome old cards
Wide variety of rarities
Available in super limited amount (1 pack per interested party on average - maybe as prize support for a 1 time worldwide tourney)
B&M stores only to control distribution (sorry TOs and online behemoths)
The point that is being made here is that certain steps may need to be taken to prevent legacy from becoming the second coming of vintage. That I agree with. What I didn't agree with is that if step 1 is legacy being in danger of becoming Vintage, step 2 should be to reprint everything. Reprinting playables that are scarce is a partial solution that doesn't circumvent promises made to the playerbase and will not evoke the outcry and loss of faith that outright reprinting of staples would.
As for your point that the cards from portal and starter aren't widely played, that was partially the point. Enabling decks that play these to be formed at more efficient costs isn't a panacea, but any help is better than none. And no, Juzam isn't playable at all in legacy. The SCD thread for it pretty much covered the bases there.
The main problem isn't that U Sea or Mox Diamond have only recently been discovered. It is that a self-fulfilling prophecy is being perpetuated when people are seeing certain inflated/speculatory prices being paid, and then deciding that current prices are lower than the inflated prices, pushing prices up until they hit the inflated price level, at which point the entire cycle can start again at higher prices. Excessive doomsaying on forums only fuels that fire.
I freaking hope not!
/End hyprocrisy
One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
It's kind of irrelevant to talk about goldifsh turns or whatever, because we're not talking about brokenness but rather likeability. People will hate what they hate, and you're not going to convince a quitting Magic player to come back by pointing out how fair the dominant deck du jour is.
For the record, there isn't really an "Extended community"; people who play Extended are almost exclusively PTQ players, and they'll play whatever is in season at the time.
Regarding talk of WotC pandering to "casual" players and the like: what would YOU do in their place? Would you dedicate more time and effort to a "community" that, overall, isn't very large and doesn't contribute to your bottom line in any direct manner, aside from the 2 GPs every 2 years you run for that format? A company can't please everyone with their product, but they can target their largest potential audience and please them and be successful in doing so.
Of course, maybe I am just wrong.
All I'm saying is don't have everyone who opens a super pack get an underground sea. That would be absurd. I think the cards should be significantly shorter print runs than the originals, thus rarer. It should be like a treasure hunt but not such an impossible treasure hunt that you come away from it feeling like you got nothing. You would open some awesome cards but the set should be big enough and with enough rarities that it would be like 1/10,000 that you would get something like a sea. That should keep all the fearmongers quiet as it should ensure the stability of the secondary market but also introduce some high priced cards into it. I don't know what the big problem is. Everyone likes to whine alot I guess.
I'm interested in getting a Tabernacle (English, not HP), but I'm not in a huge rush to get it. Any time in the next six months or so would be fine. Anyone got recommendations on how to do it? I suspect that the price is only going to go up and I should just buy the damn thing and get it over with before things get worse. Is that a reasonable assumption or is there any reason I should wait?
To be honest it depends on you. Ask yourself these questions.
1. Do you plan to keep it for a long time and not re-sell it after some large tournament like a Star City 5k or something?
2. Do you care how fast you get one?
3. Is $300 a drop in the bucket to you (as in not even close to a full paycheck)?
4. Do you have the rest of the cards for 43 lands?
If you said Yes to most of these I would buy one now. Otherwise, I would wait until some of these recent Legacy tournaments are done. It should drop some since it's such a fringe card, but I wouldn't expect it too much. It's high demand right now especially given the high placings the deck has had lately.
I'd try for the rare deal on Ebay personally. The web stores I have noticed are trying to squeeze what they can out of the stock they have since it's not an easily replaced card. Shop around, you should be able to beat most of the online stores prices by quite a bit if you hunt.
I assume you want it for 43 lands. I only asked about the rest of the deck because it's one expensive deck and does have some glaring weaknesses. I play it quite a bit. People luckily don't board much for it, but if it keeps winning these tournies, people will figure it out and it's not too hard to hate on. I'd only buy one if I already owned all the duals and fetches, those are worth more in the long run and will go up in price faster I'd warrant.
Part of me is wishing Wizards would at least make some sort of announcement along these lines - or even make an announcement detailing an upcoming product, that, in itself would answer our questions.
But...this ain't a Wizards forum.
Just sharing some personal experiences buying cards for U/B Reanimator. Prices are after shipping.
4x Underground Sea $220 (55 each)
4x Entomb $80 (20 each)
4x Thoughtseize $40 (10 each)
4x Polluted Delta $80 (20 each)
4x Force of Will $100 (25 each)
4x Mystical Tutor $16 (4 each)
Forces, Seas, Entombs, AND Thoughtseizes were less than I thought they'd be. Mysticals and Deltas hurt, however. All in all, these prices don't seem that painful compared to what people are saying they're like here. You can still hunt for deals and be patient! That is $500 or so, but it's the majority of a deck, and mostly all upscale cards that retain value. Cards that are solid investments are going to be expensive, it only makes sense.
FWIW, Richard Garfield has some thoughts about card prices:
http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/ar...50_is_Too_Much
What the hell does he know, he's not some kind of genius mathematician who invented the game... oh... wut? He did?
Seriously, he is – of course – right on the money (no pun intended). For the longest time, $20 was the typical chase rare price and that seems reasonable.
Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to see this documentary in full.
Who says the Internet isn't full of <3?
I was thinking this too. I started around 1999 and played through 2003, and I always remembered the in-print Standard chase cards being $18-22. The hype card of a particular season would be high, and then the other played rares would be in the $5-15ish range; even Lorowyn/Shards standard more or less followed this formula- Cryptic, Reflecting Pool, Bitterblossem, then a slightly lower tier of like Figure of Destiny, Thoughtseize, Planeswalkers, etc and then filler rares that saw play, like the filter lands, and whatever else.
Pre-Mythic Rares and with the exception of Tarmogoyf, was anything really breaking this trend that drastically?
TPDMC
I remember Mutavault, Bitterblossom, and Reflecting Pool were fairly bad. I don't quite remember where they leveled off at, but they weren't cheap. I remember a lot of bitching about them.
It's nice to see Garfield himself agree with the players though.
I blame the massive influx of ex-Yugioh players into the scene who are used to paying outrageous prices for their cards.
Mutavault was the only one that got stupidly expensive, and even it topped at about $40. Everything else stayed around $30 or under.
Standard cards aren't really so bad right now. The only real offender is Jace, and even he has leveled off around $45 from what I'm seeing on MOTL. The biggest problem is presale prices - the speculators drive the market into a frenzy initially, but it always levels off a week or two after release.
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