Which is the best monocolored control deck in the format?

[Jon Stewart]

I wish to heavily invest in a monoclored control deck, and I would love to hear your advise as to which one.

Green and Red have nothing to offer to my knowledge. So it really comes down to blue, white and black. Any advice/recommendations?

I know many people like Quinn (MWC) but I honestly don't see the appeal and it doesn't seem like the deck has much in the way of disrupting your opponents early on or any answer to combo whereas both blue and black offer countermagic and discard respectively.

Is MUC a viable deck still? I would love to play blue but all work on the deck seems dead and I haven't seen many placements with it on deckcheck.

So I'm leaning towards black because it has so much excellent disruption/discard, removal and sweepers, mana acceleration thru Cabal Coffers, card advantage thru Phyrexian Arena and several fantastic options for finishers.

And it seems some of the recent Train Wreck players have shifted away from splashing green to play Deed and opening themselves up to Stifle and Wasteland when Keg, Disk, Stone and Damnation can serve the same function for less mana and without neccesitating a splash.

[(nameless one)]

What about Pox?

With so much aggro/aggro-control going on, I don't see why Pox would fail.

Also, what about White Staxx?

[Jon Stewart]

Stax and Pox are an interesting suggestions and I already have and play both. They weren't exactly what I mean by control though. Both decks seem to fit more in the element of prison decks than pure control decks in the old school sense.

If I decide to build MBC...

//Mana
20 Land
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Draw & Discard
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Phyrexian Arena

//Removal
4 Innocent Blood
2 Chainers Edict
2 Shriekmaw
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

//Sweepers
3 Damnation
2 Pernicious Deed

//Finishers
1 Staff of Domination
1 Sorin Markov
2 Liliana Vess
2 Consume Spirit

That build but without the Deeds or the Staff but instead playing 2 Disks and the 4th Damnation catches my interest.

[Otter]

Is MUC a viable deck still? I would love to play blue but all work on the deck seems dead and I haven't seen many placements with it on deckcheck.

The main reason that MUC wasn't simply just "bad landstill" was Back to Basics. Once Qasali Pridemage showed up, that was sort of the final nail in the coffin. Even regular UW/x Landstill isn't doing well anymore (though we could debate how good it actually is, it's certainly not putting up T8 numbers these days), so it's hard to think of a reason why MUC would be worthwhile.

[Jon Stewart]

Doesn't MUC play lots of countermagic specifically to protect it's B2B, Propaganda and Shackles from enchantment removal? I do get the idea the format simply became too fast and aggressive for MUC to keep up though. So is MBC the best option? Should I just go ahead and work on building that deck above (-Deed and -Staff +Disk and +Damnation)? Are there any obvious flaws with the list above? Or is there a case to be made that Quinn is strictly the superior option?

[Aggro_zombies]

Doesn't MUC play lots of countermagic specifically to protect it's B2B, Propaganda and Shackles from enchantment removal? I do get the idea the format simply became too fast and aggressive for MUC to keep up though. So is MBC the best option? Should I just go ahead and work on building that deck above (-Deed and -Staff +Disk and +Damnation)? Are there any obvious flaws with the list above? Or is there a case to be made that Quinn is strictly the superior option?

Zoo's threat density is high enough that it can run you out of counters easily. Once that happens, you're toast. It only has to connect with a guy a couple of times to make burning you out a possibility.

Quinn is sooooo slooooow, unless you have the Painter-Stone combo. Even then, you're pretty easy to hate.

Mono-colored control decks are weak in today's meta - actually, control in general is weak in today's meta. You'd be better off building mono-colored aggro-control like Merfolk or mono-aggro like Goblins.

[arebennian]

The main reason that MUC wasn't simply just "bad landstill" was Back to Basics. Once Qasali Pridemage showed up, that was sort of the final nail in the coffin. Even regular UW/x Landstill isn't doing well anymore (though we could debate how good it actually is, it's certainly not putting up T8 numbers these days), so it's hard to think of a reason why MUC would be worthwhile.

It ain't dead yet:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?16602-[Columbus-OH]-UWr-Landstill-Splits-T4-of-Meandeck-Open

[Jon Stewart]

Quinn is sooooo slooooow, unless you have the Painter-Stone combo. Even then, you're pretty easy to hate.

Thank you for that honest assessment. Do you think there is any chance that MBC (the above build) might fare a lil better than the other two?

I feel that even if it's not tier one, every player should have some exposure to/experience playing a pure control deck (one where they are never the aggressor) if they wish to be well rounded.

[Pastorofmuppets]

a more tempo oriented strategy would be to go with a stompy build.
Dragon Stompy puts up the most results, but Green Chalice has the most stable manabase, and Tarmogoyf to boot.
Technically, Solidarity is combo-control, since you want to spend as much time as possible not going off.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Don't cut staff for more damnations. Staff+coffers is instant win... I assume you don't hate winning games, and you've already got a million removal spells. Don't cut staff.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah I suppose being able to tutor up Staff with Liliana Vess could come in handy in a lot of situations.

[Citrus-God]

Quinn the Eskimo?

[troopatroop]

Mono-Black Reanimator is the best mono colored deck in general, idk if it counts as control though.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Mono-Black Reanimator is the best mono colored deck in general, idk if it counts as control though.

because, you know, Merfolk, Goblins, Burn, all 6 Stompies (has Brown Town Beatdown shown anything yet?), Solidarity, MUC, and Imperial Painter are so lame compared to the force that is Mono Black Reanimator.

[Jon Stewart]

Quinn the Eskimo?

Yes that is what Im refering to when I write Quinn/MWC. I feel like MBC is a better deck than Quinn. Do you think otherwise?

[troopatroop]

because, you know, Merfolk, Goblins, Burn, all 6 Stompies (has Brown Town Beatdown shown anything yet?), Solidarity, MUC, and Imperial Painter are so lame compared to the force that is Mono Black Reanimator.

Actually thats exactly what I think. I think Reanimator has a fantastic matchup against

Mono Red Goblins
Burn
Solidarity
MUC

... and much better matchups against the field than the other decks you mentioned. I think it beats Merfolk pretty well too.

Edit: This is of course assuming that playing Iona and Inkwell doesn't make the deck B/u/w. Cuz it doesn't.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Actually thats exactly what I think. I think Reanimator has a fantastic matchup against

Mono Red Goblins
Burn
Solidarity
MUC

... and much better matchups against the field than the other decks you mentioned. I think it beats Merfolk pretty well too.

Edit: This is of course assuming that playing Iona and Inkwell doesn't make the deck B/u/w. Cuz it doesn't.

now then, please post results. And even if what you say IS true, just because a deck is better in the other monocolor MU's doesn't mean it's the best monocolor deck. Merfolk and Goblins rely heavily on mana denial via Wasteland, MUC uses B2B to a similar effect, and Burn and Solidarity are, well, Burn and Solidarity.

[troopatroop]

Well I'd point to the number of players actually playing Mono Black, which is very few. Most people including myself would much rather be playing Fow, but Unmask serves almost the same purpose. Entomb just got unbanned, Iona just got printed, it's only begun to catch on. Besides, we both know there will always be more Goblins and Merfolk players in general. I'm just saying that it has better matchups against the field on paper.

[4eak]

@ Jon Stewart

I have a great deal of experience playing Monocolor dedicated control decks (feel free to view my posts on the subject). I'm very familiar with MWC/MUC/MBC. Most people don't have a lot of experience with the mono-colored dedicated control decks of Legacy, and for good reason, splashing is so easy in this format. They do play differently than the Landstills, Loam-control, BG-variants, etc. If you are used to the multi-color control decks of the format, then you may find mono-colored dedicated control awkward, as they really are built and played differently than their multi-colored brethren.

I feel like MBC is a better deck than Quinn. Do you think otherwise?

I definitely think otherwise. I consider Quinn to be a much stronger deck overall.

I know many people like Quinn (MWC) but I honestly don't see the appeal and it doesn't seem like the deck has much in the way of disrupting your opponents early on or any answer to combo whereas both blue and black offer countermagic and discard respectively

Here are the generally relevant cards against combo:


3-4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Orim's Chant
2-3 Abeyance
2-3 Runed Halo
2 Isochron Scepter
2-3 Oblivion Ring

2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

SB:
0-1 Rule of Law
0-1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ray of Distortion

It is more difficult to clearly understand what White brings to the table against combo until you've piloted it. If combo becomes problematic enough in your eyes, then you can devote more energy to answering it; white has other cards which are quite powerful in the combo match as well (Aura of Silence, etc.).

I am not claiming most combo decks to be easy matchups, but we do have tools to win. Having an opposing combo to match our opponents is very useful as well. Proper mulligans do make this winnable.

Combo isn't the only matchup to answer though. Against decks that win with creatures, MWC has the best tools. It has the best removal (targeted and sweeping), the best draw engine, 'oops I win' silverbullets, and the best win conditions among the monocolor control decks.

As far as I know, Quinn has the fastest win-condition found in any of the mono-color dedicated control decks. It is also easily protected through Chant effects. Even silver bullets like ChantLock and Moat can be game-ending. Quinn can win on the spot, but it doesn't have to. If for some reason the Painter combo or silverbullet package is fragile/vulnerable/unusable in a particular match, Quinn has the resiliency and flexibility provided by E-Dragon, Sacred Mesa, and in some builds Elspeth.

Quinn takes patience and practice. I think the deck is underestimated; I think most people don't really enjoy played dedicated control. With that said, I think dedicated control is dying in Legacy; the mono-colored dedicated control decks will die first.





peace,
4eak

[Jon Stewart]

It always surprising how many 2 ofs and 3 ofs Quinn plays and not just cards that are tutored for either. Many of the 2 ofs and 3 ofs in the deck are rarely if ever tutored for. It's almost an spoken rule that well tuned decks play mostly 4 ofs with an occasional 3 of or two. Yet Quinn barely plays any 4 ofs at all. That seems inconsistent and kind of random.

Against decks that win with creatures, MWC has the best tools. It has the best removal (targeted and sweeping), the best draw engine, 'oops I win' silverbullets, and the best win conditions among the monocolor control decks.

I respect your opinion, but I don't see how your claim can be correct. Just looking at deckcheck.net, even completely discounting all Train Wreck builds which are only very slight variations on MBC, MBC has nearly three times as many top 8 placements on deckcheck as Quinn.

First you say that Quinn has the best draw engine. Yet, Phyrexian Arena is clearly the superior draw engine since it's a single card that does all that. If additional card advantage is needed, Promise of Power draws an absurd number of cards. Quinn's draw engine requires two cards and primarily consists of the two card combo of Top + Scrying Sheets. Without both pieces of the engines, it wont provide nearly as much card advantage so Quinn's card advantage is actually less reliable if anything.

As for removal, I don't see how you can claim that white has superior removal to black. Both colors are pretty much exactly on par, yes O. Ring is nice but imo Disk is just as good if not better (it costs more but it nukes the whole board) and Quinn doens't have the option to use Disk since the deck is very reliant on permanents. Innocent Blood and Chainer's Edict are imo superior to StP especially since they can get around Shroud and Protection (can kill Progenitus) and Chainer's Edict even recurs. Damnation is on par with Wrath. And if anything, Shriekmaw and Gatekeeper give black an edge in the removal front since they double as both removal and threats.

As for the win conditions, MBC can play Painter's and Grindstone too. It has Beseech to grab both if it wants. But most builds opt not to since black actually has better options for win conditions.

I'll give you that white has some solid silver bullets, but black has it's own advantages, such as Cabal Coffers and black does have silver bullets as well (Disk imo is a fantastic silver bullet). And while E. Tutor is a great tutor, so it Beseech the Queen. Black doesn't mind the higher cc due to the absurd mana that Cabal Coffers generates. And it's awesome that Beseech gets you the card right away and without any card disadvantage.