[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[jrp]

Round 7: Jeff Abbot, Reanimator, 1-1-1 concede
Jeff and I had some amazing games, and probably my hardest match to date. If you've ever seen a guy with long black hair in a white button down shirt, red tie, and pin stripe vest, you've seen Jeff. I saw Jeff go to time against another ANT player two rounds earlier. Jeff called Black with Iona, swung past an unblocking Xantid Swarm to put his opponent within lethal on the first of extra turns, and his opponent dug, dug, dug with Top and fetches to hit his one Wipe Away. Didn't get it, then blocked with Xantid, didn't get it, and conceded.

Ironically enough, at one point Jeff's opponent looked at the top card of his own deck with a judge sitting beside him. I could discern no reason why Jeff's opponent could, or would, do this, and promptly got a game warning. If you're out there, what was the game state? And if you goofed, what was your reasoning?

I was playing DDANT and played against Jeff in round 5. Jeff had played extirpate on something (maybe Brainstorm), which I announced resolved. I've always thought Extirpate was a pretty worthless card [see my signature from like 2 years ago :) ] and joked that mabye Extirpate actually did something for once and shuffled away my out (Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, or 4x Mystical). Playfully, I flipped the top card of my library to demonstrate, at which point the judge gave me a warning for looking at extra cards. I had a pretty long discussion with him (the judge) after the round regarding the warning, and agree that according to his interpretation of the rules, I violated the rules of the game. I still disagree with his interpretation as Extirpate had already resolved and randomization of the library was part of the resolution of the spell (Extirpate) anyway, but no big deal. Also, who doesn't do the "forbidden peek" every once in a while following a close mulligan?; I don't think I've ever seen a warning given out for that. I do understand the event was "competitive," but I was just trying to have a little fun.

I was playing Emidln's standard DDANT list from a few months ago, with a relatively standard sideboard (3 Xantid, 3 Grip, 2 Lands, Rebuild, Echoing T, S. Pact, Doomsday#2, Disenchant, Harmonic Convergence, Ravenous Trap) As usual, I was relatively satisfied with the deck, even though my play wasn't the greatest. I lost round 3 or 4 to zoo. Won game 1, as per usual, lost game 2 to the quick beats + burn plan. After game 2 I knew he had Teeg so I kept a loose 6 card hand of 3 lands+Echoing Truth+LED+Rit...guess I should have muliganed that one...I then picked up my second loss to Jeff w/ Reanimator in a tough three games. He played extremely well, but I feel as though his draws in the close games (1 and 3) were well above average, while mine were not. I even got him with the Ravenous Trap in game 3 after he cracked a delta and Entombed Iona - too bad he had a second Iona...

I don't feel as though deck is quite as well positioned in the metagame as it was a few months ago, at least not as it is built currently. People are sideboarding shitty cards like Extract and Sadistic Sacrament, and Reanimator is becoming more and more popular, and with 4x duress, 4 thoughtseize, 4 FoW, 4 Daze, and a quick, relevant clock the matchup feels slightly unfavorable.

Can anyone who plays DDANT post their latest list? I think I'm going to have to switch some of the MD chant effects (currently playing 6) for a couple duresses...

[emidln]

I will, without a doubt, be playing this list at the SCG 5k in Indy in a couple weeks. This has been something I've posting about on storm boards for several months due to a lot of success, and there is a half-finished primer floating around ( http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ae...NHNjdGdt&hl=en ) including an extensive sideboard guide and discussion for the list against blue decks, non-blue control, and aggro.


// Maindeck
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
1 Meditate
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away


If you aren't as comfortable as I am without chant effects or you feel the need for rev silence in your metagame, it'd be easy enough to switch out a fetch or an Underground Sea for a Trop Island to support some number of Swarms in the Clasm/Pact/ETruth/Wipe Away slots. I don't put a lot of emphasis on IT->IGG due to a lot of Duress effects. I see IT->IGG primarily as a plan against aggro with a primary gameplan of Duress + AdN or Duress + DD.

[badjuju]

There you go, jrp.

4x Burning Wish successfully plays around Extract and Sadistic Sacrament. Multiple people have had strong results with NLS, so I suggest giving it a try. As emidln has said, you can still run Xantid Swarms over Thoughtseizes if you'd rather play with chant effects and be able to use the IGG plan more.

[Nidd]

Looks like I have to follow the trend of people switching from DDANT to NLS. People in my Meta are discussing to SB Extract and Sacrament.

Another plus is that the deck looks even more challenging.

Btw, would you suggest to board the IGG plan out VS decks like Merfolk etc which could return 2 FoW + U card with IGG? Or would you rather run Trops and Swarms SB?

[jrp]

Thanks emidln, looks like I'll need to dig out my Burning Wishes! Haven't used them since I was play AdN TES like a year ago...

NLS looks more like an unpowered Vintage deck rather than a legacy deck (So many bombs...) I haven't played a Legacy storm deck in quite a while without chant effects, so I'm sure it'll be a little different. I think I'll try at first with the 3 color manabase, and adjust if I really find myself wanting swarm/a chant effect/rev silence. I'm really liking the idea of a 3 color manabase against tempo thresh, and ETW against CB decks. Also, I bet NLS's aggro matchup is even better than previous incarnations of DDANT considering the duresses and higher concentration of bombs.

[emidln]

In my sideboarding guide, I always side out IGG for ETW against blue. I would side out IGG even if I brought in Xantid Swarms. You can always Wish->IGG if you need it.

[myw002]

what's NLS stand for?

[MattH]

what's NLS stand for?

Next Level Storm

[UberNewHacks]

Who here has looked at the recent GP lists?

[badjuju]

Who here has not* looked at the recent GP lists?

[Rico Suave]

I don't see how LED would be a hindrance towards PoN.

Your options are crack LED and lose PoN, or save PoN and lose LED. Either way the synergy between the two is awful and you cannot use both.

In general, it is good to see players switching over to Duress effects from Chant effects. It always confused me why people clung to the Chants when they are awful against the deck's only bad matchup.

[Bahamuth]

The concept of Saito's list is interesting, but the list itself is still bad. I am testing a similar list with 1 Tendrills 1 IGG, 4 Ponder instead of 2 Ponder 2 Top and Crystal Vein instead of City.

[Julian23]

@Bahamuth: I'm kinda new to this deck, what exactly do you mean by "interesting" when talking about Saito's concept? And why would you play Ponder instead of Top? From my (little) experience I can say that Top was like the MVP of the deck for me, turning Mystical into Demonic Tutors for U.

[Nemavera]

To my mind the only bad matchup this deck has is DragonStompy. And maybe Faerie Stompy, but when did you see that deck the last time?!
Dreadstill isn't that easy to defeat, but Swarm and Carpet help a lot.
Standart Countertop doesn't play Stifle and no Wastelands. Moreover many lists include Natural Order, which is really bad against Combo. I'm not afraid encountering CounterTop. Preboard it's slightly positive for them and postboard it should be even with an slight edge on our side.
Chant is the best Protection Spell. Duress isn't that strong. Moreover it's better against Zoo and Goblins than Duress, due to the ability to Chant-walk these decks.
There is just one reason not to play Chant: You're playing Burning Wish and don't want to loose green.

I played NLS for quite some time and it's a really good deck, but it's much more complicated than DD/ANT, due to many pass-the-turn piles and you need a lot of experience to get the full value out of the deck.

[BreathWeapon]

Do you ever finds yourself cutting Ill Gotten Gains from the MD because it's just so easy to win via Ad Nauseam or Doomsday vs aggro Game 1 and it's more or less dead weight vs aggro-control? Also, isn't the SB a little much? I think clearing space for 1 MD Bayou and 4 MD Carpet of Flowers is probably a good idea, a lot of those targets are just redundant IMO.

[nodahero]

@ Nemavera: Such blind singularity is never good. Both Duress and Chant serve their function and serve it admirably they do. Duress is stronger against decks running the counter-top engine than chant could ever hope to be in a million years. Chant is more volatile against other combo decks than Duress could ever hope to be. I think the trick to saying things such as what you said above is to explain your expected metagame.

PS

@BreathWeapon: I have often cut IGG because it is rarely stellar anymore. Against aggro AdNos is almost always sufficent and against blue IGG is usually very poor and basically costs you 4 life... Do you actually mean playing Bayou and Carpet maindeck? (That is what MD means as far as I am aware)

[Nemavera]

Chant doesn't loose to SdT hiding a Force, which Duress does. Duress has the advantage of being able to pick a Counterbalance, but you'll need another Duress/Thoughtseize to get rid of their FoW. Moreover Duress is pretty bad on the draw, due to Daze and Brainstorm, and to a lesser extent Ponder setting up CB on turn 2 (hiding it on top f the library).

Duress has its advantages over Chant, due to hand information and moreover you can plan according to your opponents hand. Furthermore you can duress an EE and go off with Empty the Warrens.
Yet Chant just asks: FoW or not?

To my experience IGG is really good, not just because of IGG-Loops against Aggro, but it can strip your opponents hand and it allows many pass-the-turn piles and normal IGG Piles with Doomsday. You can IGG-Loop through a Pyrostatic Pillar and win when you're on 10 or less life, which can happen very easy against Zoo, if they're on the play.

Against Aggro-Control I usually keep IGG, cause especially against CounterTop taking in Grips and Doomsdays makes Ad Nauseam very unreliable. Nevertheless if you're playing without Doomsday, keeping Ad Nauseam and boarding out IGG might be the right plan.
Nevertheless it depends on whether you play Chants or just discard (Duress, Thoughtseize). If you play the latter boarding out IGG against decks with FoW seems to be the right thing.

[emidln]

In my 3-4c NLS lists I have caught myself cutting IGG from the maindeck for that exact set of reasons. It always turns out to be a mistake because I lose a ton of flexibility in Doomsday, Go piles and SDT/BS+cards in hand piles. Since I don't have Infernal Tutor in my maindeck, I don't often go Infernal Tutor->Ill-Gotten Gains (although I can wish into this chain). I still believe IGG proves itself off Doomsday though. I have to admit, only have one 4cc and two 3cc to hit is nice though.

Duress has issues with SDT. If you suspect your opponent is doing this you have to build a hand with two bombs in it or hide something on top of your own SDT. Further, and I've done this in tournament play, you can Wish->Pulverize and force their action if you really feel that you need to see that top card with a Duress.

That said, the hand information given by Duress/Thoughtseize is critical to making the pass-the-turn Doomsday piles viable. You have to know exactly what can happen to you if your opponent isn't a goldfish, and Chant just doesn't cut it by itself here. Hand information is also critical to making ETW an effective tool against decks like Counterbalance which may be packing Firespout or Engineered Explosives.

By playing Duress/Thoughtseize, you lose quite a bit in the Tempo Threshold / Team America style matchup where their deck is 14 land + 4 wasteland + 8 clock + 8 deck manipulation + 26 (mostly situational) counters. Recent tournament data suggests that these are not the top decks currently. Of the top decks, Duress/Thoughtseize is as or more effective against Merfolk, and is significantly more effective against Counterbalance. In the mirror, there is a tactical tradeoff forcing you to play proactively (and incidentally causing vulnerability to chant-walk). Against Reanimator, Duress/Thoughtseize effects are superior as they are effective offensively and defensively. Against Zoo, Thoughtseize is effective at taking hate bears (where you just board Duress out). While you can chantwalk Zoo to keep them from playing creatures, I don't believe you actually need that boost to beat them in a race, particularly if your postboard looks like that of my NLS list.

It's also important to note that I can cast turn one disruption off a basic land. Having basic Swamp/Island in the deck allows additional freedom against certain disruption decks and guarantees that I can continue casting my disruption as long as I need to. While it's possible to do this with Chants/Silences, you're forced to fetch into your splash color's basic, something most current lists don't do.

[Bahamuth]

@Bahamuth: I'm kinda new to this deck, what exactly do you mean by "interesting" when talking about Saito's concept? And why would you play Ponder instead of Top? From my (little) experience I can say that Top was like the MVP of the deck for me, turning Mystical into Demonic Tutors for U.

Saito's list is more agressive than anything I've ever tested. I've been trying out the 2 mana land (without Top, Crystal Vein is definitely better) and 2 AdN mainboard and the list is just so fast. Especially because Duress as protection let's you be much more agressive than regular lists with Chants. It doesn't mean it's better though, because Duress has it's disadvantages as stated above. I do think it's the right choice in this kind of deck though.

I don't think Top really fits in a deck like this. I don't think the interaction with Mystical is significant enough to defend playing a much slower cantrip instead of Ponder. Top is simply too slow.

I'm going to try out NLS soon as well, and I thought about cutting the IGG too. My experience with Doomsday comes from DDANT, and I can barely remember any situation at all where I needed the IGG in my deck for Doomsday at all. I know this deck is different, but I'm still going to try the deck out without IGG.

I agree with the reasoning of playing Duress over Chant in this deck. 4 Colours is such a pain. This deck can potentially also play the agressor (not as much obviously) thanks to Burning Wish into EtW, and Duress fits that plan much better.

By the way emidln, I have to ask... Do you think this is the best form of storm combo right now, or do you play it because it's the most complex and fun form?

[Tychoides]

Saito's list is more agressive than anything I've ever tested.

I have been goldfishing that list too and I agree with this statement. I actually like it a lot more than I thought I would with the 2 Ad Nauseam and only 2 Sensei's Divining Top. In the board though, I think I'd rather have Krosan Grip for the CounterTop matchup, but I understand why Reverent Silence is used since basically free is pretty good in a combo deck. My main concern is how this build is vulnerable to Sadistic Sacrament, though. Also not really a fan of the Dark Confidant switch.

I've also tried out emidln's NLS list, but I feel like without lots of practice with Doomsday it's going to be very difficult to pilot. I really like the explosive "I win!" of hitting Ad Nauseam, I guess.

Maybe I should stick with TES. :)