In six rounds of actual play, I DRed him three times g1, each time rebuying with Therapy for the effective Time Stretch. I think if reanimator can actually hit an archon, you've probably lost anyway, and Angel is also cold to a pair of lock pieces or whatever.
He usually gets cut for counter-hate unless they have problem permanents or I need to race some kind of combo.
Someone mentioned Duplicant to me over Angel of Despair. Duplicant is actually superior because they can't run it back with the Archon and you don't have to worry about setting up a single big turn.
If I maindecked anything it would probably be Terastodon or Zealot unless I was super worried about Reanimator.
It's worth noting that all of the maindeck Dread Return targets usually completely blow the other guy out, they just aren't actually necessary. Iona for sure "just wins games" but so do gigantic Grave-Trolls and Zombies.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
No, you can't do this. Mana pool empties at the end of the upkeep step, and as soon as you pass out of upkeep, you have to draw your card (drawing a card for the turn doesn't use the stack).Originally Posted by linux-ll-
I think generally you are right, and you obviously know more about the deck than me, but still I think cards like Woodfall Primus and Terastodn don't quite fit into this category. Mainly because they have the added aspect of also turning around a previously unwinnable game by killing annoying things like prisons, moats, solitary confinements, tabernacles etc.
I currently am taking your advise from the article you wrote and I do not maindeck any return targets other than gravetroll and am also using a very similar list to the one in your article on SCG. I went 3 and 1 the other night in a small tournament winning 77% of my games with a similar list ending third and splitting top 4, and I really attribute that to the consistency of the deck version you advocate.
However I don't like the feeling of getting "locked out" and having no chance. It bugs me to see prison players win, so part of me really wants to maindeck a woodfall primus I just can't for the life of me find room in the main, and the sideboard is going to be super tight if I use 4 leylines.
EDIT: btw the matches were against Merfolk, NO Progenitus, Dream Halls, and Dredge Mirror bloodghast version. I lost to Dream Halls just barely after some epic battles.
Last edited by junkdiver; 03-15-2010 at 10:26 PM. Reason: matches
@Frogboy
Does running 15 lands ever make you want to MD Zombie Infestation or Tolarian Winds for "more power" vs. the closer aggro, merfolk or Goblins match up? It might be a bastardization of the deck's current design structure, but I've wanted to try replacing Breakthrough with Brainstorm and using the cantrip engine to set up a more powerful outlet on the 2nd turn
15 lands implies having exactly two lands 57% of the time, which is not nearly high enough to support two-mana spells.
edit: Tolarian Winds isn't even that much better than Breakthrough due to vulnerabilities to Spell Snare.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
The Problem with Winds however is, that it might ruin a perfectly good hand, compared to Breakthrough, by discarding the whole hand
Is that so?
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
Yes, it is. Breakthrough for x>0 lets you keep something in your hand. Tolarian Winds always makes you discard your hand from your original hand. Was this sarcasm? The internet is not good for that.
"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."
-Sun Tzu
Breakthrough for X>0 lets you keep an unknown X cards, most of the times these are dredgers. Tolarian Winds gives you a new hand of unknown cards, most of the time these are dredgers. I think that adding tolarian Winds as an additional discard outlet and draw engine may be a right call. It is worth to mention that you first discard and than draw, which looks really strong with a dredger or two in your hand. Otoh Tolarian Winds are not that great after you dumped your whole hand into Breakthrough and/or PImp. This (and its casting cost) is the main reason why the card does not see play.
It is even stronger than Careful Study, because CS reads "draw, than discard", while TW reads "discard, than draw". Which in fact is the exact sequence in whih you wanna play your cards. E.g. - you first discard a dredger to PImp and than make a draw for your turn (insteading the draw with dredge), rather than drawing a card in draw step, than discarding it during the main phase to make your PImp 1/1 flying threat. No sarcasm.
People played the card and as long as you don't use LED, it could be powerful... however the list is so tight that there's no slot for TW.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero
Between Careful Study and Brainstorm that increases tho', if you wound't MD it is there a possibility of using Zombie Infestation as Imp/Tribe 9+ to alter the ratios post-board? I've been less and less impressed with Grudge as SBs are becoming 1 Ravenous Trap, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Tormod's Crypt etc. where the hate is spread out over multiple card types, I've been thinking about Trickster Mage as sort of a weird SB version of extra Imp/Tribes that do a really good job of disrupting the opponent to.
Well I see your points, Aleksandr, but I still think can be contraproductive in case you have something in your hand that you decide to hold back. Unmask would be the only thing coming to my mind though, so maybe I'm thinking too situational here.
Hi guys.
First of all - congratz to frogboy for the good article. I really like the version mentioned here.
But now I want share my thoughts on other possibilities with nonLED dredge.
I tweak this version for 3 months, now I think I can share it. I appreciate any constructive critisism and discussion, but not spare your time until you test it, and get the sense of the deck.
Many of the maindeck choices are done due to the sideboard slots. But not in the sense that it devastate you matchups - sometimes even contrary! ;)
So...
17 lands (yes, it is very comfortable to play with this count of lands - dredge can sometimes win even without playing a land - but sometimes one Wasteland cost you game)
4x Cephalid Coliseum (dredge on the first game-OBV:o), and draw on the 2nd)
3x Undiscovered Paradise (I played four, but it was too much - I replaced 1 by Gemstone Mine. I was thinking about replacing one more Paradise - 2 total - by D.Salvage - but it would damage post board games too much, imho)
1x Gemstone Mine
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs (who cares, just 4 fetches :o)) )
+-OBV core
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stiknweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug (because of side-maybe +1 and -1 Loam, but i feel that the counts of each card are right for now)
2x Life from the Loam
4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bloodghast
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (game against to many decks- this is not frogboy version :o)) - you need it)
1x Angel of Despair (because I donŽt want loose G1 against reanimator)
4x Careful Study
2x Breaktrough (only two - because it was for me the only "cuttable card" to integrate this version of decklist, and after SB you want more draw - C.Study, than dredge - Breaktrough)
Total - 60 cards
Side:
4x Tombstalker(may look fragile for the first sight - you need grave - but you often need to dredge only once and you have 5/5 flying monster...... Dredged in the yard? Kill Thug and you can draw him. Or you can Reanimate him. Same fot the Goyf. )
4x Tarmogoyf (trans Sb - still need grave, but...you know :o) )
4x Extract (AnT - OBV - very bad matchup for Dredge)
3x Reanimate (improve you game 2 against Reanimator, you can dredge more aggresively, when you have this in hand)
So, I think I give you a little insight in my version. Through explaining of card choices you can get the sense of playing the deck.
After G1 I obv take out - 4 Bridge (always), -2 Breaktrough (always), - 2 D.Return (always), -2 - 4 Bloodghast, - 1 Narcomoeba (sometimes), -1 C.Study (sometimes), -1 C. Therapy (sometimes), -1 P.Imp (sometimes), -1 Angel of Despair (sometimes, but rarely). Depends how much cards from my SB i plan to use.
I almost ever sideboard all Goyfs and TStalkers and Reanimates.
So....
Just my 2 cents :o))
On the 20th of March I have i big tournament, IŽll write news ;)
Team "Fluffy Bunnies Attack"
Hi everyone. Ive played the LED and non-LED version of this deck and my brother (whose now the pilot of the deck) and I were debating on the possibility of running STIFLE as a response to this Bojuka thing. Usually Dredge decks run Brass, U Paradise, G Mine which got me thinking that STIFLE in the board is pretty much cast-able. After all, STIFLE also stops Crypts, Relics, FAERIE MACABRE (am I right on this one?) but im not sure of R Trap, which I think makes STIFLE better than the usual (Needles, Rays, Grudges) off the board for Dredge. If you run FoW in the board, it aint stopping the Bojuka Bog.
Comments?
Stifle? no good idea in my opinion. The Bojuka Bog is only a problem when you opponent has knight of the Reliquary in play, or if he plays Crop Rotation, which is really rare..
Ok, it might be good against Relic and Crypt, but therefore we have the Grudge. It wont have any effect due to r. Trap, because the Trap has no activated or triggeed ability.. Running force in the sb means to expect a lot of combo, and then non-LED is not the deck to choose, then you have to stick to the LED version. just my opinion.
my actual list runs 3 Unmask in mainboard as well as 1 Sadistic hypnotist and 2 Iona as targets for DR. Thats really nice because you can wreck the opponents hand completly ;)
I actually think this would be absolutley brilliant if it were not for Leyline. This course of action stops a wide range of hate, but Leyline is becoming too popular to discount I think.
Bad Idea. Stalkers and Goyfs are also graveyard dependant.
I have a question about sideboarding for mirror matches and against Reanimator.
Leyline of the Void is always the first option, but what about Ravenous Trap and Bokuja Bog, are they viable alternatives? I think atleast the trap could turn out to be one. Doesn't require mulling too much and it can be a very nasty suprise once the opponent dumped all his targets in the graveyard.
What do you think?
I've just read this articles and while there are some good advices, some of the things said in there are weird.
1) Running only 3 leylines when you can't ever hardcast it is really weird. You want to maximise the chance to have it in your hand.
2) The tarnished citadels might be good game 1, but game 2 and 3, the damage that it causes becomes relevant. Games are slower because you don't want to pitch your whole hand into hate and the drawback of it versus paradise is important. It's pretty rare that you have Paradise + Coliseum in your hand, so it doesn't matter a lot. And even if you do, most of the times it won't really matter.
3) The writer is talking about doing breakthrough game 2. It's pretty weird that he doesn't side them out.
4) Fishes can't race you if you DDD ? I beg to differ. I think he hasn't played versus a competent fish player or he lucksacked and his opponent had a bad hand. Fishes kill you REALLY fast, not to mention Echoing truth and Jitte will destroy your day. Oh, and you probally won't be able to cast a dread return with the daze, cursecatchers and FoW. And you forgot hate. DDD running into hate makes you lost.
5) Crypt is not really the #1 hate card, I've seen a lot of shift towards relic and it's really painfull to try to DDD the first turn to get your dredger removed.
Otherwise, there are some really nice element in there, and one that I didn't thought. (sideboard versus lands.dec)
_____
On a side note, I've bene recently thinkering about a new sideboard Tech versus blue deck (especially merfolk) being rempant in my metagame.
I'm now considering running 1 Iona Main, 1 Iona side, 1 Terrastodon side + 4x Summoning trap. It seems kind of good, plus it almost garranty that you will have a creature outlet and that you might have an iona in play that will seal the match. What's everyone thought about this strategy ?
-Team Laval !-
On the Goyf/Stalker note, what do you guys think about Kolowith's take on Dredge with FoW and a reanimator sideboard? I understand that Exhume "dodges" graveyard hate, but I don't think it goes far enough. The strategy is still graveyard based.
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