[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[emidln]

Concerning the Doomsday lists that don't include Ill-Gotten Gains: I set up IGG piles quite often; does this imply I'm using it as a crutch or doing it wrong in some other way?

Regarding Doomsday piles:

If you're having issues with storm production or frequently playing pass the turn piles, including IGG could be right for you. In that case, you probably don't want 4 SSG. I haven't personally missed it so I don't think I'd move it back to the maindeck, but I can understand and condone doing it given the power of being able to go Duress, Rit, DD, go in certain matchups.

Edit: sorry for the double post, I think I clicked edit on the wrong post then somehow made a new post instead of editing.

[Rico Suave]

Is there any sort of plan against a resolved Counterbalance or is the idea just to make them have it two games running? (I get that Duress and Seize are good against it, but Brainstorm etc.)

There are only two ways that deck can beat a resolved CB:

1) Manually storm up and cast a storm spell.
2) Simian Spirit Guide beatdown.

[frogboy]

I feel that the Ad Nauseams are safer at medium life totals than NLS was with Rite of Flame.

Is this because SSG is free but Rite requires a Petal or something similar?

I assume your point about Counterbalance involves it being blind, right? If they get to CB/Top you have to force them to flip the Top and have enough 0cc acceleration to get around them? What about splashing Krosan Grip? If you end step Wipe Away, any decent CB player will keep a three on top of their library during their end step, but if you upkeep Wipe, they will just replay the Counterbalance. Grip gives you a fighting chance, and also gives you Xantid Swarm for added value.

[Dia_Bot]

I'm wondering, in what situation would you use Dreturns in NLS?
Because it seems like every time I would Bwish for Dreturns I want to go for the certain win instaid or just wait a turn for it. Especially against U decks when they would just refill their hands with counter spells.

[Cabal_chan]

I'm wondering, in what situation would you use Dreturns in NLS?
Because it seems like every time I would Bwish for Dreturns I want to go for the certain win instaid or just wait a turn for it. Especially against U decks when they would just refill their hands with counter spells.

You wouldn't use DReturns against U decks. It's more for Aggro (though personally, it's wiffed on me everytime I've used it).

[nodahero]

DReturns is an OOOHHHHH SHIT.... Button. I only cast it like two times in a tourney but about 50% of the time it does pull out the win for me. It dosn't do much without LED though.

[emidln]

Is this because SSG is free but Rite requires a Petal or something similar?

Yes. SSG does most of what Rite does (providing R) but it does so without an initial investment. This lets us figure in SSG into calculations reguarding initial mana sources left in the deck. Further, many common win combinations*:

Burning Wish + 2 IMS + Dark Rit + LED
Burning Wish + 2 IMS + 2x LED
Burning Wish + 3 IMS + LED
Tendrils + 2 IMS + Dark Rit
Mystical + SDT + 3 IMS + LED
Doomsday + SDT + LED/IMS + Dark Rit + 2 IMS

In each of these, Simian Spirit Guide functions as at least one IMS. So while you will take three damage by flipping them, they provide a much more immediate and flexible benefit than Rite of Flame during your Ad Nauseam. To be honest, the only time SSG really hurts you is against Spell Snare decks where you might be forced to put Burning Wish in a Doomsday pile due to lack of storm count where you might otherwise just grab Tendrils.

*btw, I left out places where having Simian Spirit Guide/Rite of Flame provides no benefit. There are other combinations you can flip and win with, but they win regardless of whether you play SSG/Rite of Flame

I assume your point about Counterbalance involves it being blind, right? If they get to CB/Top you have to force them to flip the Top and have enough 0cc acceleration to get around them? What about splashing Krosan Grip? If you end step Wipe Away, any decent CB player will keep a three on top of their library during their end step, but if you upkeep Wipe, they will just replay the Counterbalance. Grip gives you a fighting chance, and also gives you Xantid Swarm for added value.

The point about Counterbalance was due to be less reliant on 1s due to SSG. It's actually easier if they have an SDT than if they don't, since blindly flipping a one means you can't Dark Rit in response to their putting SDT on top (which in turn requires even more accel).

The main reason to not play KGrip is to not dillute the manabase. I'm going to stay UBR (my tourney record vs Counterbalance (you can check from SCG results) is 2-2 in matches through Boston, St. Louis, and Indy and I lost both matches where I had KGrip and drew it playing NLS/DDANT. The match wins came via Duress/Thoughtseize or speed (against UBw and UBR) while my match losses came vs Tim Hunt's UBG CB deck with Stifle/Waste.

The best solution in NLS is probably fitting in 2-3 Vexing Shusher, 1 Reverent Silence, 1 Krosan Grip paired with the 8 duress plan to your sideboard (giving you Shusher + win, Shusher + Wish->Silence, or KGrip + quick Mysticals as potential outs. While I'm a big fan of playing storm in any environment, most people would probably tell you to play a different deck (Dredge (guess that works particularly well for you) and Merfolk come to mind) if you have enough counterbalances that you're playing it 3+ times in an event.

Xantid Swarm is a different matter. Xantid Swarm is one of the few cards that I would be interested in splashing for as it makes certain matchups a complete bye. Under Menendian's theory that all you have to do is beat Zoo/Merfolk to do well in the environment, it would actually be worthwhile to maindeck 4 of them paired with Duress in an ANT list with a non-life-dependent win condition TES w/DReturns, NLS w/DDay or DReturns, or DDANT w/DDay. Cutting a fetch to play a Tropical Island and fitting in 3 Xantid Swarm in the sideboard isn't the worst idea in the world.

In my opinion playing green is a metagame decision. Xantid Swarm fits in perfectly with NLS (it was in the original build Byrant and I did where we ran Xantid Swarms and Rev Silence) and is kinda cool with pass the turn piles (making them somewhat viable against Merfolk (you have to take the chance they don't play a Standstill or figure out a way to win through that with your pile if they can make you draw / win if they don't play it (might be possible depending on the situation)).

There is a sideboarding guide that is linked to on the storm boards. It talks about a slightly different build, but I explain in more general terms what you might want in each matchup and why certain cards are good or bad against certain strategies. I think it's in the NLS thread a couple pages back. It might have been posted here somewhere, I don't remember.

DReturns is something you play in one of three situations:

(1) It's turn 1 on the play and you resolved Burning Wish with 4-5 mana, but you know your opponent has EE/Clasm/can kill you quickly. You get DReturns here to screw them out of a hand they kept that was good enough to keep on 6-7 but didn't include Force of Will (these hands usually end up really poorly for you as they likely had multiples of Spell Pierce/Counterbalance).

(2) You can float 2-3 mana vs aggro. This is basically played if you have SDT but need to use LED mana to get something off Wish (meaning the 2 mana Doomsday pile won't work) or if you have some mana but don't have the draw spell for Doomsday. Depending on the turn and the deck, ETW might be a good substitute here.

(3) It's your only play and you're about to lose. This is the Oh Shit button where you draw7, maybe even without mana floating, just hoping to draw something that wasn't the garbage you had. draw7 is better than nonlethal Tendrils (I don't know that I've won more than 5 games in my 4+ years of playing storm where I went Mini Tendrils, pass without a Dark Confidant on the table or another Tendrils sitting in hand) since at least draw7 gives you the hope of winning.

You won't play DReturns in most other situations. Balance of Power is the proposed solutions to problem #2 vs control.

[frogboy]

What about using a pure Shusher plan in a UBR shell? You have to make some weird fetches, but none of the Counterbalance decks have Wasteland, either. Is it just not worth the slots given the effectiveness of 8 Duresses?

[BreathWeapon]

What about using a pure Shusher plan in a UBR shell? You have to make some weird fetches, but none of the Counterbalance decks have Wasteland, either. Is it just not worth the slots given the effectiveness of 8 Duresses?

Generally speaking, trying to deal with Counterbalance after it resolves is always a losing proposition for Storm Combo, your main objective is to prevent Counterbalance from resolving or to resolve a game winning threat before it's on the board. Discard is just the best form of disruption for Storm Combo there is, I don't even bother with Orim's Chant in TES any more and about the only thing I'd SB in is Xantid Swarm at this point (and the Bayou is more for Reverent Silence, which is pretty awesome).

@Emidln

I agree Meditate > Infernal Contract at this point, EOTing that thing is awesome. As far as Balance of Power, I never cast Balance of Power any turn other than turn 1 when I don't have Sensei's Divining Top and I don't think Goblins will get there, it's less of a set up spell and more of a "raw dog" just go for it approach - I really like the flexibility myself. Also feel free to cut Telemin/Perish/Spout, I was just filling up SB space at that point because I couldn't think of anything better (altho' I'd really consider Leyline for cheap shotting Dredge at this point)

[Mr.Happy]

I tested the version with 7 discard effects.. the following happened:

My opponent (Bant with Counterbalance) hid Force of Will on top of his library (with Top in play) and kept some blue cards in hand. Duress was worthless.

[Julian23]

Nice story, bro!




I tested the version with 7 chant effects.. the following happened:

My opponent (Bant with Counterbalance) played turn 2 Counterbalance (with Top in play) all the time. Chant was worthless.

[Piceli89]

I tested the version with 7 discard effects.. the following happened:

My opponent (Bant with Counterbalance) hid Force of Will on top of his library (with Top in play) and kept some blue cards in hand. Duress was worthless.

Nice story, bro!




I tested the version with 7 chant effects.. the following happened:

My opponent (Bant with Counterbalance) played turn 2 Counterbalance (with Top in play) all the time. Chant was worthless.

I had this situation:
My opponent (Bant with Counterbalance) played turn 2 Counterbalance (with Top in play) all the time. I get t3 Krosan Grip all the time. He whines and gets fucked to death by super-nasty Doomsday piles.

[honestabe]

Is bringing in Confidant really worth is vs No Bant Countertop?

I've found that IF he lands, he draw a few cards, loses some life, and ends up chuping a goyf or war monk. Then when I try to go off, I'm at less life to ad naus with, and flipping him blows. Against slower, more controll-ish counter top decks, he's good, but against NO Bant, is it worth just keeping him in the board and just trying to combo out ASAP?

What have other people been doing to fight countertop NO bant?

[JohnBaltimore]

I have been running Saito's GP Madrid list, and I am unsure what to side in/out for the match ups. Also, I understand Reverent Silence is against Countertop, but it seems like a bitch to hit with AN, and causes me to create 3 more storm count to kill them.

What would you guys suggest?

Thanks for any suggestions

Lands:15
4x Underground Sea
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Crystal Vein (I find this much better than City of Traitors)
1x Island
1x Tropical Island

Spells:45
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Duress
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Ponder
2x Ad Nasueum
2x Tendrils of Agony
2x Thoughtsieze

SB:
4x Bob!
3x Reverent Silence
2x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Sadistic Sacrament
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Extirpate
1x Thoughtsieze

[dar482]

As someone trying to pick up the deck cold and test it out, which version would you suggest? The Saito UB version seems more simple, while the URB Burning Wish seems way more complex with IGG, Doomsday, etc. Am I right?

[kicks_422]

Of course. I suggest trying out the basic ANT first, either Saito's or the UWB ones floating around. Once you're comfortable with that, try adding in Doomsday. And then after that, try running Burning Wish with the Doomsday piles.

[Dia_Bot]

You can also go TES of course. With burning wishes but without doomsday.
But i think to begin regular AnT would be best because correctly sideboarding with TES (and NLS ofc.) can get pretty complicated somethimes.

[honestabe]

@kicks_422

what'a an ideal way to use doomsday with saito's UB list?

[emidln]

For what it's worth, I'd recommend starting with whatever deck it seems like you'd want to play. If you want to play a puzzle, pick up a Doomsday list. NLS is amongst the most complicated decks to ever be sleeved up and I can guarantee that you'll never run out of puzzles whether it's how to Brainstorm, when to wish and pass, how to spin top, what pile wins the game, or what card to make your opponent discard. Saito's list is extremely narrow in it's function and far more linear than NLS. With Saito's ANT you count to at least 5, maybe 7, then try to win. Ideally, you cast a discard spell before then, but if not, you don't really have much of a choice as you'll quickly lose if you don't go off. In some ways, it's like Belcher, but a turn slower with more resilience to mass removal. Most other lists fit somewhere between NLS and Saito ANT. The bottom line: if you're going to learn to play a deck, you might as well start learning it from the beginning, not something else that is only superficially similar.

[IamPhil]

I have been running Saito's GP Madrid list, and I am unsure what to side in/out for the match ups. Also, I understand Reverent Silence is against Countertop, but it seems like a bitch to hit with AN, and causes me to create 3 more storm count to kill them.

Reverent Silence counts towards your storm count, so you only need two more storm to kill them. Once I realized that, it became far less detrimental.

Ad Nauseam is the WORST engine ever you could use against Merfolk and this is even more true in a list playing 2 ofs. They have a relatively fast clock and can take you down to few life (and by few, i mean 10-11, when you must start to get some luck because going off with Ad Nauseam is *not* safe) in 2-3 beats. Dark confidant is just too slow in this matchup to shine. Cabal ritual gets owned Daze or Cursecatcher very easily if not cast off a Dark Ritual previously.

Seriously,i'd like to know how that UB list can win against Merfolk piloted by a good player who knows to hit in the right points. I mean, if you aren't able to go off lightning speed, they build a good board and a minimal qty of disruption and bash your ass off.
Plus, I can't understand how it is earthly possible to leave IGG which is a guaranteed way to win against things like Zoo, which they tell me are quite popular in the format. The "you can do a Mini Tendrils then go Ad Nauseam again and then Tendrils again" issue is not always doable, as it is true that those Saito-ish lists do *not* always kill on turn 2. And I'm saying these things *not* because I play Doomsday ANT then I hate every other configuration: I picked up Rico Suave's list which is pretty well tuned, and it sucked losing from Zoo because I didn't have a first turn go-off ("only" third turn) and he just took me down to 13 and I wasn't able to flip enough cards from Ad Nauseam (because of, curiously, flipping the second AdN).

To be perfectly honest, most of the matches I've won against Merfolk using various Legacy ANT variants have involved my opponent's mistakes furthering my storm count. I'm pleased to see this, because I like winning, but locally I've been sitting down lately and hashing out when to counter, what to counter, etc. It has definitely made my matchups more difficult, but the short term losses are slowly but surely converting into long term gains in experience and play skill.

And Dark Confidant was always, ALWAYS underwhelming against blue if not seen in the first turns, and I often found myself in a situation against Pro Bant where I was under pressure attacked by some Goyfs and RWM, had Confidant out, and despites providing me cards he was antisynergic with the aim of the deck, since this deck practically only kills via Ad Nauseam, you want your life to be the highest as possible. I could stand him with IGG (and with Chants, then), but here...

I'm not willing to flame, beware. Everyone is free to play what suits him more. But to me it's underpowering to flat the real deck's possibilities into a single storm engine (ok, there's natural Tendrils, but honestly that's pretty situational to pull off), which happens to be the most unstable one, too. AND I KNOW that Saito won a big tourney and top8ed a GP with it and bla bla bla and now there's this tendency to take his list and copy-paste it, but still, I dunno.

The current trend is explosive power. What would you do differently? If this discussion would derail the thread, please feel free to send me a private message.