Could you telll me why it's not effective against Storm Combo? I thought about it for two days cause I didnt want to spam here:Originally Posted by Funky-kun
They need storm-count 9 + Tendrills to kill you.
If they played 9 cc2 spells this turn they get 18 damage from Pillar.
You need 2 more extra damage to kill them (which is easy, cause you have T1-Lackey, and they fetch 2-3 times)
If I did my math homework right this card is great against StormCombo. Even removing/bouncing Pillar costs them 4 life (2 for Mystical tutor, 2 for bounce)
I'm pretty sure this deck would be better if it splashed blue for FoW, Daze, Brainstorm and Ponder. Like you'd have Goblins against creature decks, and they wouldn't be able to handle all your dudes, and you'd have FoW against the combo decks. You literally couldn't lose. Well except against LichTendrils of course, that deck is a Juggernaut. Not the card though, like the indesctructible Vishnu. And I don't mean indestructible like the keyword, I mean like, unstoppable.
Yup, and standstill with vial or lackey is great also xD.
Really.
Achtung: Panzer!
Each one of the permanent hate pieces are effective when they land. The thing is living up to two lands in play to do that. Of course with Pillar on the table they are unlikely to kill you. However, they can drop a bunch of goblin tokens, or use their time to find an aswer to Pillar.
Chalice goes around this by being available at turn one, set at 0. Mindbrak trap is available from the start. Thorn slows down their digging for answers and usually delays the answer a bit.
Granted, most of the argument in here are not relevant in my case, that is Belcher, as they don't dig for answers. They either have the right hand or they lose. Sadly, most of the time its the first one.
The limited testing I did showed that Pillar was not as effective as I hoped for against Enchantress, as besides the obvious Oblivion Ring, Solitary Confinement also negates its effect. Thorn and Chalice work the same way, they both buy us time. Chalice stops acceleration and Elephant Grass (this is a big one), Thorn slows them down, and also delays the answer by one turn usually. I do have a sideboard hate testing gauntlet scheduled, then I will be able to back up my arguments with statistical data.
Last edited by Funky-kun; 05-02-2010 at 07:16 PM.
The other big reason not to play it is the fact that everything in your deck minus 6 cards costs 3 or less. The only way to beat combo is to drop as many creatures as possible and attempt to race them. A pillar is going to quickly add up against you. Chalice is a lot better. If you go T1 lackey/vial, T2 chalice @1, you are in a MUCH better position. Chalice will shut off all of their cantrips and tutoring. This requires that they have the mystical or 2cc bounce in hand. Your T2 is usually spent clearing the path for lackey, so this causes no real tempo loss.
Last edited by JonBarber; 05-02-2010 at 08:47 PM.
Anyone see the list that came 3rd by Mark Brislin in the SCG Open? Ran 3 Lightning Bolts + 3 Weirdings MD:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=32448
Is 4 x Lightning Bolt viable for Mono Red?
Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.
Yes it is. I used to run 4 a while ago. They're expecially effective in a Instigator build.
But than I came to the conclusion that we have goblins that are better options (like running 3-4 Gempalms)
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
That was me. I actually ended up 5th losing to belcher in the quarters. I'm going to write up something for the thread later today probably, I didn't take notes so the game details will be pretty general from memory. Honestly, I don't think 3-4 gempalms is more effective than bolt and ill explain why later.
here is the trip report, ended up being far longer than i thought it would be.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...lanta&p=452912
Congrats man.
Big events with goblins placing all seem to include a similar removal package of 3 bolt/3 weirding. At least the last two I remember. And a pair of gempalms and a lucksack stingscourger. Nice, nice.
I recommend we all try it out.
However, I have some questions for you.
Blood Moon is good against lands/landstill, but I would board it in against very little else. Don't know if that's really a significant portion of any meta. But...what does everyone think elsewise about his blood moons? Yes, it's rehashed discussion, but there is nothing wrong with a little hash.
In my testing pithing needle has been ineffective against "randomness," as I feel goblins is more of a proactive deck. It's ok if you are expecting survival, but especially against jitte I've always been disappointed with it. Do you feel differently?
You have nothing to side in against NOBant/Countertop. Does this concern you? I noticed you sided nothing against one of these opponents.
I will test your mainboard, I think it is very strong. However, I'm going to go -1 Piledriver, +1 Instigator for personal reasons.
But I'm going to try this sideboard, for now:
4 Perish
4 GY Hate (3 relic/1 crypt)
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Earwig Squad
1 Warren Weirding
Perish is awesome. I recommend x4 for zoo, NObant. Two of the three most popular decks in legacy, along with merfs.
I hold onto my GY Hate in my sideboard like a woman hangs onto her stocks. I + GYH = BFFs 4-3v4r
A well-placed thorn can go a long way, not only against combo, but against burn and a few others. I wouldn't say "(ex.) board it in against tempo thresh all the time," but once in a while you will reaaally surprise random non-creature decks with +4 additional must-counters (most of the time).
Earwig Squad defeats Prog and sticks it to Reanimator. Can help against goyf strategies, combo, landstill, lands, and fucking MORE. Gotta love him in today's metagame, though he's clunky as fuck. I wouldn't go over x2 despite his versatility (because if you think about it, it's not actually a very good card)
Warren Weirding is good against goyf-based aggro-control strategies, so I added the fourth to my board. I heard those are popular in legacy.
Personally, I think Mark's maindeck is pretty much awesome (though I dread the word optimal), but the jury is out on lightning bolt for many of us. I just prefer a higher instigator count and only 3 piledrivers because of playstyle considerations.
If anyone is looking for a starting point for a sideboard in today's general metagame, I would start with mine as a launching point. I do think x4 combo hate is worth it... though it doesn't increase your win percentage dramatically, it does increase it, and there is a lot more combo than there used to be. Sneaking wins is possible against combo, especially with 4 thorns. But if combo hate is stupid to you, I would personally try +2 Needle +2 Chieftain instead of the thorns.
Congrats man. Your only losses came to a pro and the deck's absolute worst matchup in the entire god damn world. Just curious, do you know if you would have made it if you drew in the last round against goblins? 2 goblins in the t8 would have made me wet.
So Chieftains are not MB material anymore? What about on Mono-Red builds?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@foulq
Thanks for the congrats. I'll answer each of your questions.
I can't speak to monored builds as I haven't tried it in the longest time. I don't like chieftains though. IMO they really clog the 3 spot which I would think hurts you against zoo since I think your goal is to buy time early on and get card advantage later thru siege-gangs and ringleader. It really blows to have 2 or more 3 drops in your hand and you have to tap out on third turn just to get one down and watch as they burn it away and continue beating down on you. I don't think they are needed for merfolk since you destroy them anyway and they may or may not be better against the mirror, I feel like they are probably good for the mirror but the same tempo thing comes into play as well. With 4 ringleaders, 4 matrons, 1-3 siegegangs, 4 warchief and 2-4 chieftains your hands can get full of high CC creatures. Against lots of other decks I feel like its probably win more.
Also as far as the mirror goes, I don't know what the metagame numbers were at atlanta but I had goblins players near me it seemed almost every match so its def gaining popularity and you should be factoring in the mirror.
Edit: Chieftain talk is purely conjecture as I don't own them and have never played with them.
How would a Mono Red list look with Lightning Bolt - something like this? Is Port still supportable when you need extra R for Bolts?
4 Vial, 4 Bolt, 4 Lackey,
4 Piledriver, 3 Instigator, 2 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourger
4 Warchief, 4 Matron
4 Ringleader, 2 SCG
17 Mountain, 4 Wasteland, 2 Rishadan Port
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis, 4 MB Trap, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Anarchy, 1 Gempalm
Reasons to play Bolt: as markbris has noted, good vs. mirror and Zoo, both of which are in my meta.
Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.
I'm currently running:
4 Wasteland
16 Mountain
2 Smoldering Spires
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Aether Vial
3 Lightning Bolt
Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Boartusk Liege
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Anarchy
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
The deck's curve with Lightning bolts in it is much better:
1 - 11
2 - 10
3 - 11
4 - 4
5 - 2
I was playtesting a mono-red list similar to markbris's and I have to say, It is a little faster than my usual build. I personally did not mind my initial build (with 3 Chieftains instead of Bolts). My meta has little combo. The thing I didnt like about my list, like what markbris pointed out, was it clogged the 3CC spot.
Also, with Bolt gives that extra removal if needed. I myself have lost enough games to Zoo. Bolt also provides that extra push when needed. I definitely am changing my list.
Speaking of extra reach, would Barbarian Ring be good too (on a mono-red build) or its one of those danger of cool things?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Is the black splash for Warren Weirdings (with some combination of Badlands, Bloodstained Mire, and Auntie's Hovel) now considered superior to the mono-red version with more fatties than ever in the format? I'd be relieved not having to look for a set of Rishadan Ports if that's the case!
lordofthepit: I've read in the last 10 pages or so that it is the case, with Reanimator/Iona and other combo decks, which black is slightly better at dealing with.
nameless one: I think Smoldering Spires is the only other non-basic that could fit - I don't see Barbarian Ring making the cut at all. You have enough reach via your Ringleaders & SCG.
avatara: Why run Kikki without Lightning Crafter & Co? I would have thought it was all in or not with that card.
Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.
Depends on the meta of course. But in a general metal, I think the consensus is that RB is the best version. Like TheSleeper said, it is better against Reanimator, Iona, (progenitus!), and combo decks. Mono-Red is better against merfolk and zoo. Otherwise they are about the same on every matchup, with RB getting a slight edge because of superior removal and Mono-Red getting a slight edge because of a superior manabase (+ optional ports).
You don't even necessarily need ports for Mono-Red either. Playing 4 instigators and any number of chieftains (along with the standard 4 warchiefs) usually means you want 16-18 red sources, and 18 mountains + 4 wasteland is probably the most popular Mono-Red manabase configuration, at least on the Source.
I don't really know if the deck's curve with lightning bolt is really that much better, considering you will usually not curve out with a t1 bolt.
Barbarian ring won't work I think. You don't want to give away those life points against zoo and theres no way to insure you get to threshold.
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