I think the restriction you impose is pretty artificial but I will note that sphinx satisfies all of them except rarely the "stays permanently."Originally Posted by Piceli89
You have to understand that in a deck with aggro capabilities like this, 2 swings from it usually ends the game, and if it doesn't you cash in for 3 cards. It's kind of why while everybody else is scrambling to find the "60th card" or w/e, I've been kind of confused. I don't know why so much attention is being paid to work I've already done. The sideboard is much more flimsy and could use the manpower (to analyze the last 4 slots) but instead all that we seem to be discussing is something I already know, and have tried at length to help other people know as well:
Sphinx is awesome.
Play 1x if you're doubtful, and fill in with like KOTWO or something that used to be in an old list.
Well put.
I didn't see Seal of Removal mentioned. I used to run it in my old U/W/r Fish, but at least in this deck, when against non aggro it has the benefit of returning fathom seer, resetting jotun grunt or just acting as protection besides just getting pitched to FoW.
I'm scared of using the sphynx for the same reasons listed above. But apparently it's good. Have to test myself.
Apparently Parallels doesn't work anymore since I upgraded my OS. WTB MWS for mac.
http://richshay.com/posts/70 for how to get MWS working on the Mac. It's worked ok for me, it's usually pretty unstable though.
I think maybe getting a newer version of Wine might help, but I'm hopeless at computer programming so I don't even know how to uninstall it properly.
I top 4'd local legacy this week.
my sideboard has changed a little over time to look something like this:
3 enlightend tutor
2 aura of silence
1 thorn of amethist
1 canonist
1 engineered explosives
1 relic of porgenitus
1 tormods crypt
3 echoing truth ( I cant decide if i liek this over curfew as it doesnt hit inkwell but it helps in the belcher match)
1 mindbreak trap (combo is a VERY common match in my meta)
1 propaganda (most likly the weakest card)
so onto the touurny report
game 1 vs gw survival
game one I keep a somewhat lackluster hand of swords swords brainstorm brainstorm fetch fetch wayfarer. i fail to find anythign useful and a exalted goyf runs me over
game 2 I side out 4 moms 2 wayfarers and 1 ether vial for 3 ET 1 relic 1 crypt 1 EE and 1 AoS
this game goes back and forth alot I eventualy make a gamble and top out to play jitte and equip it to seal up the game he drops natural order, Game punted
game 2 vs white weenie
this was an easy match over all I more or less resolved mom equped jitte to something and win
second game was the saem as the first i didnt bother side boarding
im now 1-1 (2-2)
match 3 i find myself against combo elves which is a match i was not prepaired for at all
game 1 i swords some stuff fail to stopp him get ran over by some 50 elves on turn 3 or so
game 2 in comes 3 et 1 canonist 1 propaganda 1 EE. out goes 4 mom 2 vials
this one plays out as turn 1 tundra pass EOT ET for canonist t2 canonist hunt down jitte then win
game 3 he trys to glimpse turn 2 I daze he pays for it then realizes he has no mana owch. i get avenger and grunt ground pounding find EE to kill soum 8 elves fallowed by jitte to win the game at a measly 7 life
record is 2-1(4-3)
game 4 final round I play against a terrible RW countrol deck that hinges on playin humility and sweepign with pyroclasm and what not both games i jsut kept humiliyu off the board.
final score of 3-1 (6-3)
top 4 was
1. merfolk
2. UWT
3. Ant
4. soldiers?
we all just split but given the field i think i wouldnt have had any real trouble winning. for those who wonder waht my list looks like its the OP minus KotWO + 1 spell pierce. I havent tracked down and sphinxes yet but im sure theyed be great. Also I tested stifle extensivly and foudn it increase our zoo matchup about 10% and ends up dead against pretty much everything else so dont bother.
I've been testing the most recent decklist posted with sphinxes and I like it so far. Its great against the zoo matchup, and doesn't do badly against merfolk either. The only annoyance is that sometimes I wish I was casting a fathom seer for the three mana. I haven't played a lot against reanimator but I've been testing against BUR fairies and unless I get terrible draws sphinx shines there too.
I really like the clock that spinx provides, on its own and especially with jitte. My only complaint is having a lot of times where its un-castable, but then its just force fodder.
Thanks for the MWS mac link. I'll give it a shot.
However, I just bought the cards that I needed to run the last list that pi4 posted. Enlightened Tutors hurt! When I was getting the Stoneforge Mystic I picked up the sweet playmat as well. Better than my current Reliquary Tower.
Stoked to have this in card form.
Does curfew fail if you have no creature or is it like innocent blood/barter in blood?
I'm kinda liking hurkyl's Recall for that spot but I suppose there's nothing left to say or do besides test and report if there's ever going to be other solid variations. Isn't that right?
Awesome deck. Great thread.
It doesn't target, so it works even 100% asymmetrically ;)
@pi4meter: I know you put much effort to find that missing slot, and for another time I convined myself to give Sphinx another chance. I will play only 1 of her because i play 1 vial more, which I think it' s too crucial for the mana-gambling tendency of the deck, along with being a huge threat for every blue deck and being one of the few things that may let us not losing from a resolved Countertop (which, lately, seems to be a huge problem, at least to my eyes, if paired with mass removals and/or Vedalken Shackles. W/e, though./super annoying fast Trinispheres/Merfolk superiority avoiding to fetch blue/ instant blocks or tricks.
For what concerns the sideboard, I'm using this configuration from like two weeks and it always has satisfied me. There are 13 slots of which I'm firmly convinced, along with 2 flexibles/still to decide/testing out. They used to be EE and the second Thorn, but sincerely I always noticed that EE was extremely suboptimal or too much symmetrical in the matchups where it matters (Zoo, namely..yes, also to break Chalices, but that is doable even without it), and the second Thorn has been cut because of the general lack of pure control/combo.
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 1 [A] Meekstone
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [M10] Harm's Way
Ok, i think there has been a general brow lifting.
Some will think that pithing needles are just too narrow to work well for this meta, but I think this card is designed perfectly to stop what hurts this deck the most:
-Survival. Mot of the latter builds, with the exceptions of BantSur, are more relying on the enchantment, especially considering how Vangevine is good when you get four 4/3 hasty on your face on turn5 making the deck a pseudo-form of fast aggro-combo with a strong goodies shell. Bringing in Needles and trinket, I managed to have an even Survival Matchup, which is pretty good.
But needle also nails:
-Grim Lavamancer (not recommended to side it against the deck using the Mancer if they are fast aggro, though).
-Qasali pridemage. Always frustrating to have your backbreaking Jitte fucked by that broken cat.
-Countertop.
-Vedalken Shackles.
-EE, which you know is dangerous for us.
(Planeswalkers).
-Nails lots of 43Lands' threats.
Needle has always been too good to me to not play it, I won several games because of it played at the right time, especially against Survival. But what I like about it the most is that it avoid you bringing in Aura of Silences in some Matchups where you know they have too few art/ench to bring AoS in, but these few ones are a real threat. Faeries Ugr, for example, only play a couple of Shackles and 1-2 EE. So,it would not that great to bring in AoS. But Needle's flexibility allows it to hit both the cards above and, also , to resolve problematic situations such as stopping Lavamancers, Factories (it may happen), and other stuff that deck packs.
Meekstone is there to stop reanimator and the usual fatties, even if, on a theoretical plan, it's not too bad against Pro Bant (Tarmogoyf, RWM, Vendilion, Progenitus), even if we're already well suited for that deck, Big P excluded. It shines against garveyard-based aggro-controls: Aggro Loam and New Horizons. Here bringing in the Relic, Meekstone and Trinket tryad is awesome.
Trinket Mage of course takes all these, allows a comfortable exchange for another blue card in certain MUs without lowering the blue count, and in th lategame if topdeck mode would ever occur, it's just a 2x1 that is going to give you a good advantage.
Ah, it beats too. I use to side him also against discard decks taking a FoW out, since in this Mu keeping your hand up on cards via Seer, Trinket and Mystic will keep you on track until you get the inevitability win the game.
The two Harm's Way are the aforementioned cut cards' replacements. I think they're great not only to misdirect Lavamancer activations (so working as a virtual 5th-6th Stp), but also against Merfolks, which is not really a good matchup if they manage to board at least a couple of lords on the board, and this is going to happen really a lot since the newer builds are already playing at lesat 2 Commanders and they have reached something like 14 pump effects. And you do not always open strong anti-aggro hands, or just have an island out and can't get a seer resolved /Tundra autowasted.
You can also subtract a couple of damage from a pumped dude to make it accessible to Angel kill-blocks, and redirect it on the player or onto another dude, effectively making direct or indirect (after blocks) 2x1. It's also an interesting card because it can totally screw math about the race, especially when you have the Angels out.
Even if i do not have tested it yet, I think the card has serious potential against Zoo, Gobs (if we ever need them against this MU) and the Folks, of course being useful against crap like Burn. I wish I could find another slot for them.
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I've been disappointed with theoretical replacements that just don't work out.
Specifically I haven't found much luck with Harm's Way or Trinket Mage, and Pithing Needle just isn't good enough to be worth a board slot. Let me know what your testing results show, but I'm not very optimistic.
Incidentally, Pithing Needle's problem isn't that it's too narrow, it's that it's too crappy. It only stops one thing and outside of a few niche matchups (Survival, decks relying on EE, and Lands), it's nothing you'd ever consider playing.
Turn your grim into an Eager Cadet, woot! Remind me again how this interaction is favorable?
EDIT: Since nobody mentioned this, I guess I will: A U/W Tempo player missed Top 8 on shitty tiebreakers at the last SCGs. He went 6-1-1 to pick up the $100, so nice job to him. Still waiting on the Jared Sylva article to find out what the metagame breakdown was, but chalk up another big performance from another player on UW Tempo at a big event.
How much did the price for ET jack up? Last I saw it was only like $6.
I'm a bit of a weirdo whn it comes to my cards. For example, I get a silly satisfaction of playing white bordered wayfarers. But I paid a little more (after shipping they came out to $9.50 each) so that I could have NM Mirage. My thinking is that if I ever want to switch to BB Farers it's no big deal, but a semi-staple like Enlightened Tutors I'd rather just pick up a decent playset now.
The pimp thread would hate me. I altered masques brainstorms so they'd have white borders.
I feel orange faces pain in re: to a meta where needle is useful. With the enlightened tutor toolbos after siding I'm not sure more than one is needed. I'm also surprised to hear the hate about needle.
I can't see harm's way being worth it. It targets, wouldn't path to exile just be better? That's saying something since it's my personal opinion that PtE sucks but with wayfarer I could tolerate it.
Truth is, curfew seems more needed the more I think about it. Pwns random eldrazi Jank, animator (is reanimator really a big deal anyway?), dreadstill, etc ad nauseum.
The largest problem with needle is that when its good they'll kill it. as most deck bring in artifact and enchantment hate for our jittes any how. I tested back a while ago it works kinda but just feels to clunky for a deck liek this that wants to think on its feet and have its hands in everything the oponent does to spend what ends up being 2 mana and 2 cards for a temporary solution when it could play AoS in most situations and slow its play then kill it when its played. That being said Qsali pridemage is a bitch, but I havent had a huge problemwith him in particular. I mean we play 2 jittes anyhow and afer board you have a pile of ways to get them into your hand
I'd advise against Needle and Meekstone vs anything but Reanimator. Yes, the cards have their uses, but once removed, they have ZERO impact on the game. And that sucks.
Like, vs New Horizons, I played a Meekstone into two KoTRs. Two turns later he topdecks a Grip, Grips me EOT and bashes in with double 10/10. Reanimator on other hand, doesn't play artifact removal, so its fine. If you can't justify running multiple Curfews, run a single Meekstone. If there's no Reanimator - don't run it at all.
As for EE, I've been running it for a while and found myself using it as removal for creatures most of the time. Where it also hit me most of the time. I just think there's a better option: I run Wing Shards now. Definitely not your StP ##4-8, but very good.
Excuse me, but don't they have bounce in their sideboard? Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth can be just as deadly as Krosan Grip. But then again 'Don't play card X because it can be removed' has always been a bad argument for not including cards.
In a deck with a very tight manabase, with Fathom Seer making sure the lands on your table usually don't rise above 3, Wing Shards seems like one of the worst cards you could play. If you lack removal, you should definately go for Path to Exile, heck, it even has synergy with Wayfairer. But if you need non-targeted removal, I agree, pickings are slim. But there are generally better options than Wing Shards.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
to speak on the behalf as a reanimator,
Over 50% of the reanimate decks that produced any form of results is playing a green splash for krosan grip, reverent silence and/or nature's claim.
Besides that, any reanimate deck that doesn't has acces to wipe away/echoing truth/chain of vapors.
Worst case scenario, they will have to force/daze/seize it or attack with a sphinx of the steel wind, when they already dropped iona on white before.
If you want non-targeted removal against stuff like reanimate or what not. Use tariff, or bounce ( echoing truth,wipe away).
I tested the match a few times, and it's not a positive match for UW tempo. Iona (white) is terrible, not to mention the inability the deck has to race an inkwell leviathan or empyrial archangel without 2 turns of jitte attacks.
They usually need at least 3 swings with any of their creatures. So you can just afford to replay it once. It buys you time, while they try to assemble answers to it. By no means its the Curfew, but it works with tutors, and if your meta has like 1 Reanimator, its fine. Nobody in my area runs green splash in Reanimator, so Grip or whatever is moot point for me.
You do need 3 mana to cast Fathom Seer, right? Which deck does regularly produce. In fact, it goes to 4+ mana quite often, there are long games, and everybody had their streak of floods. Wing Shards has the added bonus of dealing with Progenitus, and sometimes (fairly often, to my experience) provides card advantage. It isn't turn1 card, obviously, you PLAN to play it at least as 2 for 1. PtE just sucks, do we even need to discuss that?In a deck with a very tight manabase, with Fathom Seer making sure the lands on your table usually don't rise above 3, Wing Shards seems like one of the worst cards you could play. If you lack removal, you should definately go for Path to Exile, heck, it even has synergy with Wayfairer. But if you need non-targeted removal, I agree, pickings are slim. But there are generally better options than Wing Shards.
Yes, I don't need more targeted removal, I need advantegous removal. EE sucked at that, while Wing Shards looks solid so far.
Why not try Retribution of the Meek. This way you don't need the creatures to attack, so no Annihilator business, also solves problems when your opponent uses his Goyfs as a Wall you can't get through. Seriously, Wing Shards is awful.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Because I didn't know of this card? Obviously solid against Goyf, KoTR and all the fatties, although I can see situations, when you want to hit smaller attacking creatures too.
I might try it. Anymore suggestions?
Tariff for reanimator/Prog matchup, Reprisal for Goyf matchup. Path to Exile for... anything else?
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
I don't know guys, you all are saying that Needle has "zero impact on the game" and bla bla, but everytime I saw it it won me games I would have otherwise lost with Aura of Silence, from nailing Survival when they were fully tapped out and leaving them with a bunch of shit (Squee, ecc) in hand, to stop control from doing its mass removal stuff. If you are convinced it's a bad card you are free to play something else, I will go on keeping them. I mean, it's true that it hits only one thing at the time, but you have to hit the one of the few centerpieces of certain archetypes that roll over this deck, and you're basically in an advantageous situation.
P.s., Wing shards is terrible if you're also plan to play it against zoo. Against aggro, they usually pass from the combat phase and then play spell/Burn on the second main phase, so i guess you're not going to ramp up its effectiveness with your own spells(since it costs 3) and you can't count on the opponents' one.
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