[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[KindGrind]

Eureka's clearly going through the roof. Feel bad I snobbed a playset of italian ones at 12$ a piece a month ago...

Jace 2.0 and Gideon are on the rise, too.

[majikal]

Wow, Eureka's over $100 apiece. It's not even good.

[death]

It's really a bad card and it's gonna get worse..

[MMogg]

I held onto a mint Eureka for yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears and it was always just around twenty +. Traded it away in January. *sigh*

[General_Norris]

It's really a bad card and it's gonna get worse..

Aside from being tech against Somkestack does it really have other uses?

[TW_REB]

I know it's only virtual cardboard, but FoW is 145 a pop on mtgo now...

[Atwa]

I know it's only virtual cardboard, but FoW is 145 a pop on mtgo now...

This disturbes me even more then the prices of cards like the P9, Loyal Retainers, Empyrial Recruter or Tabernacle.

It's only a digital item for god's sake.

[Solaran_X]

Wow, Eureka's over $100 apiece. It's not even good.

I assume you're quoting StarOverPricedCity?

$47 Average on MOTL.

[Mark Sun]

I assume you're quoting StarOverPricedCity?

$47 Average on MOTL.

Expect this to rise astronomically, beacuse SCG is buying them at $60.

[Solaran_X]

Expect this to rise astronomically, beacuse SCG is buying them at $60.

I know this is probably a far fetched conspiracy theory (or is it?), but two recent things have caught my eye and I feel that there may be a correlation between the two.

First is the rumors of the new Mercadian Masques and above Eternal format, supposedly being introduced as a PT-level format like Standard and the dying Extended. I initially wrote this off as unlikely given that the person who began the thread about it on Salvation was a new member with that being his only post and then disappeared.

Second is how StarCityGames (let's face it...the rest of the dealers follow SCG's lead most of the time) is now buying obscure niche rares, all pre-Mercadian Masques, at absolutely ridiculous prices and selling them (unless they're "Sold Out" like how SCG is currently sold out of Eurekhas and has been for three months, despite buying them at $60 each) at even more ridiculous prices. And while they aren't rising as quickly as these niche cards, SCG is slowly but surely upping the price on Legacy staples (at a much smaller rate, and as such much less noticeable).

And finally, we all know Ben Bleiwiss (I know I misspelled that) is the main purchasing agent for StarCityGames, and was one of the three people invited to WotC headquarters to "discuss the Reserved List."

It seems to me like Wizards is encouraging StarCityGames (and by following their example, most other dealers) to push Legacy's price to critical mass like Vintage currently is. And once Legacy hits critical mass pricing, I see Wizards swopping in to announce their new MM+ Eternal format as an alternative to Legacy and Vintage, complete with Pro Tour seasons and PTQs and FNMs (maybe).

I know it sounds crazy, and I'll probably be called crazy for saying it. But every passing week, as SCG jacks up the price on another obscure niche rare and Legacy staples increase another few cents...well...I thought it was crazy also earlier this year, but it seems less crazy every week.

[Nelis]

It seems to me like Wizards is encouraging StarCityGames (and by following their example, most other dealers) to push Legacy's price to critical mass like Vintage currently is. And once Legacy hits critical mass pricing, I see Wizards swopping in to announce their new MM+ Eternal format as an alternative to Legacy and Vintage, complete with Pro Tour seasons and PTQs and FNMs (maybe).

But why would they do that? Wont they lose out on a lot of money if Overextended (MM+) will be pushed as the new format and Legacy dies ? Or am I missing some part of the point you're making.

[stalkerzero]

That's a really interesting idea for sure. I don't know how much weight I'd put in to it but realistically Wizards could make sure that the companies behind it wouldn't lose money.

Wish we'd get a hint from WotC whether this was a possibility or not. The more I think about it I think it's backed by real support from Wizards, not going to be another eternal format that is left to die then I'm all for it.

[death]

Expect this to rise astronomically, beacuse SCG is buying them at $60.

I wonder what they are doing now with the giant pile of Scroll Racks they bought for $10 a piece.

[Solaran_X]

But why would they do that? Wont they lose out on a lot of money if Overextended (MM+) will be pushed as the new format and Legacy dies ? Or am I missing some part of the point you're making.

I think the thing is is that Wizards sees how popular Legacy is. Earlier this year, it surpassed Extended to become the second most played Constructed format in Magic, right behind Standard.

The problem is the collectors and dealers, not the players.

For Legacy to remain healthy, availability of certain staples (namely duals, Lion's Eye Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and to a lesser extent non-Reserved uncommons like Force of Will) would need to increase drastically. However, reprinting these rares, while the players had little or no issue with it, would have caused an uproar among the collectors and dealers as their collections/stock would have fallen drastically in price (if Underground Sea was printed in M2011, while I'm sure it would have been a $20-$30 rare land, the value of Revised/Unlimited WB copies probably would have fallen to the "reasonable" $40-$50 range, causing dealers and collectors to take a moderate value hit despite their copies still remaining reasonably valued).

Furthermore, I believe now that the announcement regarding the Reserved List was intended to placate the dealers and collectors while causing some discontent among the players (which it achieved). Also, if you've noticed the timeline of events, the announcement of the closing of the foil loophole of the Reserved List occured before the initial leak of information about MM+ Eternal (OverExtended if you want to call it that). So as the timing happened, shortly after many players became discontent over the Reserved List, rumors began circulating about the new MM+ Eternal format. And then shortly after that, SCG began increasing the value of obscure niche rares that are barely played, alongside their slow continual increase in cost of Legacy staples.

As for Wizards losing money...not really. Legacy players (and to a lesser extent, Extended players) are not known for cracking boxes/cases to get cards for their formats. We tend to cherry pick available singles. It's the Standard players who go hogwild trying to finish their playset of the new set within the first month or two, and thus it's the Standard players who line Wizards' pockets with green. But nowhere near the extent that Limited players do, since they use brand new cards every time they play. And the only way to get them is to buy product from dealers, who buy product from suppliers (who buy product from Wizards) and directly from Wizards. I believe that it is Wizards' intent that by basically phasing out every playable card pre-MM, the new players of OverExtended will purchase cards in similar quantities to replace cards they own, but are no longer legal for use (Force of Will => Mindbreak Trap, Mishra's Factory => Mutavault as examples). Let's look at Phyrexian Dreadnought. Since it would no longer be legal, Wizards could print, say, a 10/10 Trample for 2 with the same "drawback" as Phyrexian Dreadnough. And since Stifle is in the new format, those that played Dreadstill in Legacy would have to get these new Dreadnoughts to continue playing. And there are plenty of other cards that are staples in Legacy that could be reprinted as a similar, but significantly weaker, card that the players of OverExtended would need.

[UrDraco]

They are going to combine the super huge pile of Scroll Racks with the super huge pile of Food Chains and make a crazy Eureka deck. My guess is the next card to bubble is Candelabra of tanows because you can untap the eldrazi land with it, omg combo! They got lucky speculating on Natural Order but that is about it. Cards like Entomb and Tabernacle jumped on thier own and have deck to support them. Sell your Eurekas now because they are going to way of scroll rack.

I think the best way to speculate on magic right now is to scour the forums for new and developmental decks that suck but use an old card. Ben will see the Japanese tinker with the idea, shoot the price of the card up, and then they will all realise what the source figured out a long time ago, the deck actually sucks. The only exception to this rule is the lame deck that wanted to abuse Karakas and Mangara the Condor, but it was Iona that justifies Karakas, not the bad deck.

List of old cards that have potential but end up sucking after you test them:

Candelabra
Chains of Mephistooholes
Nether Void
Defense of the Heart
All Hallows Eve

Cards which have gone through this cycle:
Helm of Obediance
Scroll Rack
Food Chain
Eureka (isn't Hypergenesis Better?)

If anyone feels like adding to the list please do

[Mark Sun]

I wonder what they are doing now with the giant pile of Scroll Racks they bought for $10 a piece.

Caught me off guard, but that was good LOL

Well, I think they can afford to make risks like that though, with how much money they're pulling in from other sales. The thing is, they jumped the gun too early on Scroll Rack and now have a large stock of them. But you can't compare it to Eureka, since the deck already has shown minor success at a SCG 5K, and while it has been steady going up with RoE spoiled, they just sprung the trap. Damn you for being innovative, Legacy community.

[Cabal_chan]

The problem is the collectors and dealers, not the players.

Screw the collectors. Wasn't there an argument about how reprints don't necessarily cause a price drop? Wasn't there an argument about how the Reserved List doesn't actually protect your precious 'investments'?

It's a game first and foremost. If no one's there to play your game...have fun with cards no one wants.

PS: These same collectors should be fighting tooth and nail against MTGO and OverExtended. Both can, possibly, draw players away from irl Legacy, which means less demands on their cards, which means a price decrease. Maybe. It's amazing how short sighted some people can be.

That, and I'm going to use 'b-b-but my collection' everytime someone brings up a price issue for MTGO and OverExtended. Because hey, if it works for irl Legacy, it'll work there.

[Nelis]

As for Wizards losing money...not really. Legacy players (and to a lesser extent, Extended players) are not known for cracking boxes/cases to get cards for their formats. We tend to cherry pick available singles. It's the Standard players who go hogwild trying to finish their playset of the new set within the first month or two, and thus it's the Standard players who line Wizards' pockets with green. But nowhere near the extent that Limited players do, since they use brand new cards every time they play. And the only way to get them is to buy product from dealers, who buy product from suppliers (who buy product from Wizards) and directly from Wizards. I believe that it is Wizards' intent that by basically phasing out every playable card pre-MM, the new players of OverExtended will purchase cards in similar quantities to replace cards they own, but are no longer legal for use (Force of Will => Mindbreak Trap, Mishra's Factory => Mutavault as examples). Let's look at Phyrexian Dreadnought. Since it would no longer be legal, Wizards could print, say, a 10/10 Trample for 2 with the same "drawback" as Phyrexian Dreadnough. And since Stifle is in the new format, those that played Dreadstill in Legacy would have to get these new Dreadnoughts to continue playing. And there are plenty of other cards that are staples in Legacy that could be reprinted as a similar, but significantly weaker, card that the players of OverExtended would need.

I didn't mean to say that wizards would be losing out on money, they never will. I was thinking card dealers would be losing out on money buying all those niche cards for such high prices. I suppose you (and they) expect that the benefits for the card dealers will be bigger when overextended kicks in than the loss they make on buying those niche cards. I think you're right.

[BenBleiweiss]

Just chiming in on this thread again :) There's no conspiracy theory here - our Eurekas were bought out by other dealers. I raised the price to $60 (sell) English and $50 Italian, and put up an Italian Playset. We were bought out by a different dealer. E-bay is going for $70-$75 for the last few completed auctions - and that was for a BIN and one in not-great condition.

If Tabernacle (which is basically a one-of in a deck) is hitting $300-$350, Karakas is hitting $50 (Uncommon) and Moat is hitting $200 - and none of these are a four-of, wouldn't it stand to reason that the market will bear a price increase on Eureka (a four-of Rare) from this same set? I'm not commenting about whether or not I think Eurkea has a future or not - I am just making the point that if Eureka is hitting $100+ right now on the open market, it is entirely justified given the prior market trends of other cards from Legends over the past year.

- Ben

[Atwa]

Jeez, am I glad you can still buy those cards at a decent price on magiccardmarket.

€18 for an Italian Karakas (€22 for an english one)
€60 for an Eureka.

I know how the market works, but it still baffles me how fast some of these values rise.

EDIT:

Also, Rishadan Port @ 20? When did this happen?