[DTW] Bant Survival

[Jaynel]

Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?

Two ways:
It gets boarded in against Reanimator, and you put it in to play when they Show and Tell (this is pretty uncommon).
You play Loyal Retainers first, then discard Emrakul to Survival and activate the Retainer's ability with Emrakul's trigger on the stack.

It can also be used to shuffle in your graveyard to dodge graveyard hate and stuff like that, I guess.

But I'm pretty curious about why it's in the board.

[conboy31]

Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?

A) it can be thrown in the yard to shuffle your gy into your deck if you are low on threats or want to recur something.
B) get out loyal retainers on the table. Have a survival of the fittest online with G open. Throw the emrakul from your hand into the yard, in response to his shuffle himself back into your deck trigger you sac your loyal retainers and bring him center stage to your playmat with a shit grin.

[majikal]

Emrakul the Aeons Torn? How does this get played?

It has a couple of different uses actually. First it's awesome if you're expecting any kind of non-Leyline graveyard hate. You can Survival Emrakul into the yard in response to whatever they're doing and fetch up Wonder or whatever you need to dump back into the graveyard.

It's also awesome against decks with lots and lots of removal. Just shuffle everything back in and keep going.

Lastly, you can animate it with Loyal Retainers in response to its trigger when it hits the graveyard, which is sometimes better than Iona against multicolored decks.

Edit: Looks like I got to the party too late!

[Julian23]

But I'm pretty curious about why it's in the board.

That's actually the only place it wants to be in. It gets sided in against anything with Show and Tell as well as every deck that aims for the late game.

[Dack]

Hey everybody, I haven't posted on the thread yet but I follow it with big interest, since I've been playing the deck for 2 months now. I'd just like some comments on my list that seems to work pretty well.

Maindeck

Lands
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures
1 Genesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
2 Meddling Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Other Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Windborn Muse
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Rhox War Monk


- My only very tough MUs are Merfolks and Countertop. Has anyone tested Firespout on SB with a Taiga againts Merfolks ?
- What I love with this deck is that the MUs advantages are pretty dependent of the skill of the player, but it's also frustrating to lose against MUs that are doable because of tiny misplays that become big in this deck (that's what happened to me at the BOM)
- I'm waiting for your comments on my list

Regards

[Waikiki]

I've been trying out something new. So far MM has been working best for me fighting vs SSS, Daze , pierce and spell snare

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

The SB is still trying some stuff out. I have no idea how that will work out.

[johanessen]

Loyal Retainer+Iona vs Wonder

Where I can find any explanation? Or we need both? (or no-one)

[Jak]

Loyal Retainer+Iona vs Wonder

Where I can find any explanation? Or we need both? (or no-one)

You need Loyal Retainers/Iona. The combo is just too good to pass up. I'm not saying the deck can't survive without it since Loyal Retainers carries such a heavy price, but it is better with it. Wonder is great versus aggro decks so it will always have a spot. Just because you already have a large flier doesn't mean making Goyfs or War Monks fly is terrible. It breaks stalemates.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Meddling Mage
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona

1 Squee
1 Wonder

SB
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gilded Drake
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I need to trim the MD by a slot but I recently threw Wonder back in cause it actually helps a lot against Zoo and Goblins.

I really should add a couple Crypts for Reanimator and Ichorid so maybe trim some of the Pierces or Paths. I dunno, Portland Legacy died so I can't test.

[Black Mass]

I'd play them both too, I took out Wonder in my last list in favor of Sower of Temptation and I really missed the Wonder. That could also be that Sower has been very underwhelming for me.

But as Jak. says, it breaks stalemates and gives you another chance (besides Iona/Retainers) to quite easily finish the game.

[danielcrocker]

Just a quick question, don't get me wrong I'm sure this deck is good but why is it under decks to beat if it never really top 8's ?

[Julian23]

IT top8'ed heavily in December/January/February. I'm proud I'm at least partly responsible for that.

[danielcrocker]

I top8'ed heavily in December/January/February. I'm proud I'm at least partly responsible for that.

I just really haven't had any experiences with deck or even seen it in person.

[Julian23]

I just really haven't had any experiences with deck or even seen it in person.

I'm sorry, I wanted to say "IT top8'ed heavily", not just "I". Sorry for the confusion. Guess you haven't met it because it's one of the most expensive decks in Legacy. Especially after January Loyal Retainers rose in price like crazy.

[majikal]

I made top8 at a 38-person tournament on Wednesday. My only losses always seem to be decks that I've never played against before, and then when I figure out how to play against them I'm fine. Even Merfolk haven't been posing as much of a problem lately.

The only matchups that consistently gives me headaches are ones involving CounterTop, and that isn't really being played in my meta currently, so I'm okay with that.

Here's a round-by-round breakdown of what I played against:

Round 1 ANT: 2-0. This was Saito's list. I get Thoughtseized early and show him a grip with 2 FoW, Noble Hierarch, Survival, 2 lands and a Rhox War Monk. He takes a FoW. On my turn I play Noble, pass turn. On his upkeep he casts M. Tutor and I FoW it. He draws a card for the turn and passes. On my turn I rip a Meddling Mage and name Ad Nauseam, and he scoops. I board in a bunch of Spell Pierces in place of StP, and Ethersworn Canonist instead of Pridemage. This game goes pretty much the same way, only moreso. If that makes any sense.

Round 2 Aggro Loam: 0-2. I got crushed. (a) I had never played against this before, so wasn't quite sure how to approach it, and (b) it was piloted by an excellent player who was extremely familiar with the build. Note to self: Meddling Mage should always, always, always name Devastating Dreams first. Devastating Dreams fucked my shit up. Game 2 I was almost able to steal a win through active Survival and Emrakul in hand, but I never saw more than 2 mana after geting DD'd twice. I lost to a 20-something/20-something Countryside Crusher. Savage.

Round 3 Reanimator: 2-1, can't remember exactly what happened over the whole match... I played pretty poorly this round, and I lost game 2 because I mulled and then kept a poor hand for some reason, but apart from that I only remember doing some Survival shenanigans with Faerie Macabre and then Gilded Drake targeting his Sphinx of the Steel Wind ftw.

Round 4 New Horizons? 2-1. Some Bant Deck with Knight of the Reliquary and Cold-Eyed Selkie. That shit is terrifying, no lies. I sent that little bastard farming without a second thought. This match played out pretty slowly, actually. We both did a lot of FoWing each other's Noble Hierarchs and pretty much ended up Mind Twisting each other. Anyway neither of us had cards for a lot of game 1, while we both played draw-go until I got Survival online and Iona-locked him out of his removal color. Game 2 he plays turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting me. Whoops, I boarded out Pridemage and kept a graveyard-dependent hand! Scoop it up and go to game 3, boarding back in one of my Pridemages. I got Survival down really early and when he plays Wheel on me again, I respond by dumping Squee for Iona, and then Iona for Retainers. Next turn I play Retainers, which gets FoW'd. Awesome, it goes to the bottom of my library! Next turn I do it again and proceed to fuck his shit up. At some point he casts Gilded Drake. Cool, he gets my Iona. On my turn I Survival up my own Gilded Drake and take her back. GG.

Round 5 Dreadstill. I offer ID and my opponent wants to feel it out for a game to see what the other 9-point slots are doing. They all proceed to play their games out, so we draw into Top8.

Top 8. Round 1 - Doomsday. Fuck. 0-2. This deck is brutal, and I should know. I've been testing it for the last few weeks and it's easily the most resilient combo deck in the field. Only problem is I haven't tested against it yet. Whoops. He pushes Doomsday through every piece of hate on the face of the planet on turn 2 both games and I lose to Emrakul. Sad face. Still not sure how/if this deck is beatable with BantSur. Further testing is warranted.

[sdematt]

It still shows up, but the pricetag and availability on Loyal Retainers keeps the popularity lower than other decks in the DTB. Just wondering, when did everyone here pick up their Loyal Retainer, before or after the spike?

-MAtt

[Julian23]

Early January for 25 Euros.

@majikal: gratz on your finish. I've already get a little more experience with the Aggro Loam matchup. The games are really intense and game 1 you REALLY REALLY want them not to resolve Devastating Dreams. I used to run Spell Snare which helps a lot here but Meddling Mage/Spellstutter Sprite also come in handy. In my 1/4 match at a GP Trial for Madrid I let him resolve each and every threat just because I knew I would HAVE to counter Devastating Dreams to stand a chance. Worked. Game 2 & 3 you just have to assume they side out the Dreams.

[Waikiki]

So why would they board it out? Its like the only card we are really scared of.

@Why dont we see top 8's. Actually we do from the handfull of players that actually managed to keep playing the deck after failing with it. This deck is annoyingly expensive for newcomers. Loyal retainers price made me ROFL once again. Also the deck is very skill intensive. The wrong choice often loses you the game. People might disagree but imo thats the reason people do or do not T8.

On a 2nd note. Here is another decklist I've been toying with.

// Lands
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [A] Savannah
1 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite/Daze/Spell snare/Kira/Meddling mage

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator

The most interesting afcorse is the sideboard. Where I wanted to try out a new plan instead of fighting most of the hate the plan against merfolk (where imo the survival is too slow) and CB top is to change the engine into cold eye selkie. Draw a tons of cards which they cant keep up. I use SSS in this build cause this can protect the selkie the best.

[Julian23]

Aggro Loam players usually board out Devastating Dreams against any deck running countermagic. That's what they are taught by others and at least speaking for me thats what has happened in seach sideboarded game so far. To be honest I would strongly consider keeping it if I were the Aggro Loam player that's why I usually hold on to my Forces even in game 2 & 3 although I have strong doubts that's correct.

/edit: Regarding the Loam matchup, here's my match report from the 1/4 of a GP Trial:

1/4 Finals: LONG intense game against RGwb Aggro Loam
G1: He's on the play but keeps a slow hand. His 2nd turn Chalice@1 meets Spell Snare while I drop Goyf on my turn. Turn 3 he grabs LftL with Burning Wish while I eot brainstorm into two addiitional Goyf. I decide it's time to go all-in on my turn dropping them at 4/5. At this point I might only lose to Devastating Dreams to which I kept holding a Force despite my urge to counter Burning Wish. He spends his turn cycling and loaming so my teams takes him down to very low life. On his turn he reveals Dreams with enough cards to to kill my boys and just asks me to reveal Force.

+2 Tormod's Crypt +1 Faerie Macabre +1 Path to Exile +3 Spell Pierce
-3 Rhox War Monk -3 Spellstutter Sprite -1 Swords to Plowshares

G2: This game goes on for AGES. The 1/2 final of the other bracket even finishes before we complete this game. I have an early Goyf but decline to FoW his one in fear of Dreams, Burning Wish etc. So the both green guys keep starring at each other for a long time while he develops his board with Dark Confidant and eventually Knight of the Reliquary. During this game I made the mistake of holding on to my two Forces for much to long beacause one resolved DD would win him the game on the spot. I was WAY to overcacious although I figured he was very likely to leave them in the board after game 1. I manage to buy some time removing two Loams, Worm Harvest (got with Burning Wish) and a countered Chainer's Edict but eventually die to two GIANT Knight of the Reliquary.

G3: This game just goes the way this is meant to be. Drop Survival on turn 2, Vendillion Clique during his draw on turn 3 while Spell Pierce takes care of a second Burning Wish after the first one grabbed Reverrent Silence which killed SotF. Countryside Crusher meets Swords to Plowshares. Two turns later he double blocks Goyf with Goyf+Dark Confidant. I consider not killing the later as he's on just 9 life while I have Clique in play. I decide against it b/c I'm still at comfortable 24 life and am holding double Force + Vendillion Clique with five lands in play. He keeps cycling and loaming but doesn't find an answer so Clique seals the deal.

[majikal]

Also the deck is very skill intensive. The wrong choice often loses you the game. People might disagree but imo thats the reason people do or do not T8.

This. I've been playing the deck for months now and I still make shit decisions with it that cost me the game sometimes.

However, The deck's strength is that once you know your matchups, you probably won't lose. As long as you've got a bullet, you've got an out. Nothing is really much less than 50-50, which is awesome. I don't think there are very many matches that are autowins, though, so you have to play very well and try not to lose to yourself.

I can honestly say that piloting this deck has made me a better Magic player overall, and that is why I continue to play with it.

[Waikiki]

I would like to get some feedback on the sideboard idea ;)