Unless in Atlanta every Goblin deck ran Mindbreak Trap it has nothing to with it.Originally Posted by Endril
Mind break Trap is good against Belcher.
Price of Progress is good against Lands.
Boil is good against Merfolk.
All of this is true, but we have to find flexible SB options. As we found out, Trap sucks against ANT (which is more frequently played than Belcher).
I'd rather run Chalice to make more MUs better (like Canadian Thresh, New Horizons) and accept that the Belcher MUs sucks (even with Chalice).
The consensus is that Rb is better. I used to be convinced that Rb is better too (I played it before it got popular). But now I'm not sure. The reanimator matchup is much worse but I'm not so sure about other matchups.
I played Monored a while ago and I really liked it for its consistency too. Rishadan Port singlehandedly won me the round vs NOPROcountertop. I din't play against Zoo at that tournament but have tested vs Zoo a bit. My suggestion is to test Mogg War Marshal instead of Fanatic. I like it for a few reasons.
1. It gives you 3 blockers vs zoo which give you time to set up mid and/or late game and win.
2.The extra creature you get from it really helps Gempalm Incinerator.Without War Marshal I always felt that Gempalm is mediocre and not suited for early game. War marshal changes this.
3. It's two more damage if you run chieftain , and adds +2/+0 to Piledriver. I like a 3/3 split between Chieftain and Warchief.
I haven't tested scrapper yet but I think its better because you're not dependent on haste for your tinkerer.
About Belcher: if you want to do the unexpected you can run Artifact BlastBut it's too narrow a sideboard card.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
@Gobolord: If every deck ran mindbreak trap, that would make it look worse. I'm saying that we win 25% of those games so maybe we should run mindbreak trap in the SB to up the win %. And how does chalice of the void help against canadian threshold? They have a pretty balanced curve.
@Nelis: Goblins wins about 3 out of 4 matches against reanimator, and I believe that's due in part to warren weirding. If you're monored, your chances of winning are actually worse. They'll drop an Iona and name red, and you have to hope you have a vial with 2 counters and draw into a stingscourger or that's good game. It's not hard for R/B to be as consistent as monored since you can just run swamp as a one of and still have 14-15 red sources and 11 black sources. And that's including 3-4 ports. And artifact blast is an interesting solution to belcher, except that 7 of their 11 win conditions aren't artifacts.
@Muradin: There has been some debate over if mogg fanatic is better than lightning bolt, and even though it's not a goblin, I'm starting to side with the bolt. Zoo is actually the reason I made this choice, because it kills the majority of its creatures. But I also like Nelis's argument for the war marshal, and I don't know where else you would fit it.
As for the scrapper vs tinkerer, I agree with Nelis. You don't want the tinkerer sitting there for a turn before you can use it because it might be to late or it might get removed. And I'm scared to play pyromancer because of the amount of removal in the format. They are likely to stop you from dealing lethal, and then your board is cleared. And I don't agree with using it against goblins either. It doesn't give you time to lay down goblins after it resolves, so they get the first chance to ramp back up. And while I don't agree with putting Instigator in my R/B version because I would have to remove removal for it, I think it belongs in monored. It's too strong for monored to not run at least 2 of it.
@ Endril -> Nelis already admitted the mono build had a much worse Reanimator matchup; why are you telling him the same? He merely said he thinks mono-red is stronger against other decks.
Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.
"The consensus is that Rb is better. I used to be convinced that Rb is better too (I played it before it got popular). But now I'm not sure. The reanimator matchup is much worse but I'm not so sure about other matchups."
I must have taken him out of context. It looks like he's saying he used to think RB was better but now he's not sure because of the reanimator matchup, suggesting that monored handles it better. But I guess it makes more sense if he's saying that RB handles reanimator better, but maybe not the others. Of course, from what Muradin is saying, monored is having just as much trouble with zoo as RB is (I would think it's having more trouble).
I wouldn't bring in Chalice vs Canadian either but anyhow the curve may look quite balanced you are shutting them off everything they need in the beginning:
Stifle, Goose, Brainstorm, Ponder, Bolt, even Spellsnare.
Still im more convinced by bringing in Perish for this matchup and REBs.
I guess you could read it the other way around. I did mean to say that Rb is better vs Reanimator but Im not so sure Rb is better than monored vs a whole lot of other decks.
I do believe mono red does better vs zoo (especially if you build it with War Marshal) because:
1. You get no damage from fetch lands. The manabase is much more consistent
2. Rishadan Port and wasteland helps in shutting them down. If they fetch basics because of wasteland it slows them down (which is good) and you can still screw them with Port. If they fetch duals they're faster but you can screw them much more with Wasteland. It's a lose lose situation for Zoo if you ask me.
(3. Some zoo builds even run Wasteland nowadays.)
I feel opposing wastelands in general are not good vs Rb Goblins. It's the main reason I am starting to dislike Rb more and more. I also feel that fetch thins out lands too much which makes Rb's manabase much more inconsistent. This makes it hard to reach 3 mana especially when my opponent wastes some of my lands. This is especially a problem if you haven't managed to play a turn 1 Vial.
(Btw, some people will disagree about the deck thinning because someone once calculated that thinning out the deck has hardly any impact on drawing lands. My intuition says otherwise.)
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
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I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Reason 1 makes sense, although I typically take 1-3 points per game at most with 6 fetches. As for reason 2, I run both of those in RB, although I admit I have to run 3 ports instead of 4 if I want a basic swamp so I'll have 14 red sources. Reason 3 I'm not worried about. The reason I thought RB might be able to handle zoo better is weirdings, and some even run perish. I think that's a better consideration for zoo than the damage taken from fetches. I admit I haven't tested monored enough to know how it does in the various matchups, but I was playing the deck that took 2nd at SCG Indy for a while and I didn't like it. Before that, I had been running RW for a few years and loved the versatility of it. I'm actually thinking about switching back to it if I ever become comfortable with giving up untargeted removal. I'd run it before monored. Having plows along with all the SB hate I can run is nice.
Oh, and I'm not convinced that fetching lands has a big impact on your land draws. You only pop a couple of them and you only draw a few more cards out of the 50-some cards you have remaining. That, and if it does thin your lands out a little, I generally pop them after I lay my other lands and I can usually at least get enough to drop a ringleader, and less lands in the deck means more goblins from him. If anything, ringleader increases your land draws by taking goblins out. Fetch lands also allow you to shuffle after ringleader puts cards on the bottom (I know... matron does to). This debate could go on and on, and I'd imagine it has if I look back 50 pages or so.
Well of course. Let's believe your intuition over a mathematical proof. Probably the intuition of some BP engineer said that their Oil platform was secure...
That said, there's no way I'd not play Perish in the sideboard of Goblins at the moment. It is just amazing in all problematic noncombo matchups. If you feel that there's a problem with not enough lands, run an additional land or use your Wastelands more carefully, they can also be used to produce mana after all. With Auntie's Hovel in the deck in addition to fetchlands and Badlands colored mana shouldn't be a problem.
The only matchups that are improved by not running black are decks with Stifle + Waste and against those, Perish easily outweighs the disadvantage of a weaker manabase.
BP is what happens if you make decisions based on mathematical prove. Some mathematical idiot probably figured a 10% risk is worth it. Anyhow for me its better to count on my intuition than on my mathematical skills for sure
I actually do run Hovels in my Rb build just because of that but there are people not convinced of this (I think they're wrong). I played 24 lands before but there's so many Goblin cards I want to fit in that I went back to 23.
I'm not sure how you mean your last statement. Those decks packing Wastes and Stifle are usually tempo decks (UW tempo, ***** variants, Team America and such) that do not or hardly run enough green creatures to sideboard in Perish anyway.
Or do you mean that the benefits of Perish vs other decks (like zoo) outweighs weakening those Wasteland and stifle matchups.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
So is a Rbg manabase too fragile? I want my deck to be prepped for an unknown metagame, and Tin-Street seems fairly strong. Is it worth weakening the manabase, or no?
First of all: Goblins is a deck most other decks have to find good solutions for. We ask the question and THEY have got to answer them (not the other way round).
For this reason I think it is important to play a straight and stable MD and put flexible cards ind SB. Usually Rb provides answers (SB-cards) for all situations. G is usually splashed for HooliganMD and Krosan Grip in SB.
IMO Hooligan is not worth the slot in MD cause you trade speed for flexibilty here. Plus: Hooligan does nothing if you control Warchief.
Krosan Grip in SB definatley IS an option, but I think one single enchantment or artifact has never been a problem for Goblins. Therefore we dont need it.
If you want to prepare for an unknown meta you could play some of these in SB
Earwig Squad
Thorn of Amethyst
Red Elemental Blast
Engineered Explosives (Goyf, Pridemage, Survival, Jitte, Spellstutter Sprite, Bitterblossom, Confidant, Mana-Artifacts, Token)
Bako - I can usually get G mana with 6 fetches and a taiga (maybe run a 2nd just to be sure), but it's pretty hard to have all the R/B mana you want and still run ports. I'm still waiting for your answer in the other forum on grips, because I'm still worried about solitary confinement, engineered plague, etc. In my latest bit of testing, I haven't really needed it though.
Tin Street - I took this guy out of my main when I decided to clean up my deck and run 4-ofs, and make it RB again. Tuktuk is a great replacement. And when testing him against merfolk, I vial'd him out to blow up a jitte without setting off a standstill. So that's yet another use for tuktuk over tin street... you can vial him out and get around counter spells.
Engineered Explosives seems like an interesting answer, although I'd have to have 4 mana open to drop it and activate it in most cases. That, and it doesn't hit plague or confinement. And it gets countered. But still worth considering I guess.
Green isn't worth it...
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
Indeed, the main reason for wanting to splash green is Krosan Grip. Counterbalance isn't enough of an issue to splash for.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
A friend of mine just does it to beat nought -.-
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
I wouldnt splash green for that. We run Weirdings. If there's a lot of Noughts around you could always opt for Grip but I personally would't splash for Nought. Dont meet them enough in Holland to care about 'em.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
You are right.
But Counterbalance isnt a problem either. It is dangerous only when they have Sensei's Diving Top alongside.
They rarely hit Matron, Chieftain, SGC, Warchief or Ringleader, cause their mana-curve ist strong at cc1 and cc2.
Plus we have Vial. So no need to run Grip for that.
Oftentimes they dont even have Counterabalance in g2 and g3, because they find it bad themselves.
How is our matchup with Death and Taxes/Random Weenie-Kithkin decks? I am running a Mono-Red build. Would Anarchy actually be a good sideboard or is it just overkill?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Usually we are way to fast for them. Therefore its pretty good. They dangerous if they have Swords of Fire and Ice; sometimes Jitte can be a problem too. The Mangara/Karakas action doesnt bring a bit, its too slow.
Anarchy is a good SB card. Its also killer against the nasty Staxx and Enchantress (which is almost an autoloss for us)
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