I've been working on this deck for a couple of months now, and have tweaked it for my local metagame to accomidate heavy aggrodecks like goblins (there is one every week) and some annoying combo decks like dredge and belcher. However I am concerned that when I take this deck to a bigger venue like Columbus, where I am certain there is going to be a lot of tempo decks, which I have struggled against in the past (though I have not played against it recently). I wonder if anyone has thoughts on the following list on how it might play against tempo decks and what suggested changes they might have.
Onto the list:
4 Noble H.
3 Meddling Mage
2 Q. Pridemage
4 T-Goyf
1 Kira
1 Loyal Retainers
3 Rhox Warmonk
1 Squee
1 Trygon P.
1 Rafiq
1 Wonder
1 Iona
4 Bstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains.
Sideboard
3 Dueling Grounds (I know this card is not very popular, but it has done me well against decks like goblins, dredge, and merfolk)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gilded Drake
3 Faerie Macabre (I upped these to three due to dredge causing me pain and reanimator, but I wonder if I shouldn't go down to 1 and include 2 t.crypts)
2 Gattock Teeg
1 Llanawan, Celph. Emperess
Is it really needed to play 2 more win options (Wonder, Rafiq) next to Iona+Retainer?
If you want to take Gaddock Teeg against combo a split of Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist would be better i think since it's really hard to handle them if you can land them both.
I have no experience with Dueling Ground but it's just an alternative to Path to Exile which would be in that slot.
In the end my sideboard is very close to yours but with more graveyard-hate instead of combo-hate.
3 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
I find teeg the worst of the hatebears. Run MM or canon if u fear combo will show up alot. Teeg is more good vs Stax or landstill. Shutting down ur own FOW sux.
They booted us out of the DTB forum! Now maybe we'll fall off the radar and win even more!
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Hey everyone.
So I played in a tournament tonight and went 6-0-2. Deck played really well and I had a lot of fun. I guess I will start with the list:
Bant Survival
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendellion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Meddling Mage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Squee
1 Iona
1 Loyal Retainers
Spells
4 Survival
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan
1 Emrakul
1 Meddling Mage
Now for some matches...
Round 1 - ANT
Game 1 - I keep a good looking hand with a FoW, Spellstutter, Hierarch, Monk and some lands. I have played against this guy many times and he always played some sort of tendrals so i felt safe. I go second and I get out a 4th turn Iona. With a meddling mage on mystical tutor, the game is over quick.
Game 2: -4 Swords, -1 Sower, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Meddling Mage, +1 Faerie
I keep a nice hand with Spellstutter, Spell Pierce, FoW, and some other stuff. He mulls to 6. A 3rd turn Vendellion Clique gets rid of his Ad Nausem and beats for many points of damage. My Iona gets wiped away and a Meddling Mage on the tutor stays alive from a countered Slaughter Pact. I alpha strike and he shows me Ill Gotten Gains afterward but Faerie Macabre would have taken care of that.
2-0-0
Round 2 - Mono Red Burn
Game 1 - I keep a hand with Hierarch, some lands, maybe a FoW, and War Monk. He stalls a little on two lands and a Spellstutter counters a 2nd Bolt for my War Monk and the game is out of reach for him.
Game 2 - No sideboard? I cant remember if I sided so I will assume I did not.
I keep a hand with 2 War Monks and I feel bad for my opponent. I play them turn 3 and 4 with a spellstutter saving the 2nd after a desperate attempt to try to gain control of the game again. Good draws are always good.
4-0-0
Round 3 - U/W/r Planeswalker Control with CounterTop
Game 1 - I keep a normal hand with Hierarch and some Goyfs. I land a Survival about turn 4 and we trade blows as he mostly wraths my creatures over and over (after a Meddling Mage naming Wrath of God dies to a Day of Judgment *shurg*) and kills a few more with explosives. A second copy of survival off a Brainstorm gets me there after about 30 minutes. He waste locked me with Crucible for awhile but enough basics and having 7 cards in hand the whole game was just fine. Also, transmuting for Karakas with Iona on the board naming white is pretty good for the control player.
Game 2: -4 Swords, -1 Sower, +1 Meddling Mage, +2 Grip, +2 Pierce
He wrecks me this game by Helixing my Heirarch, Spell Snaring my Survival, then playing Ajani, Elspeth, and Jace in consecutive turns. He gets the nuts and I don't any counters.
Game 3: No sideboard changes
I go aggro all over the place with Goyfs and Pridemages. After a Counterbalance is blown up and a wrath is counter, Clique takes care of his only removal and Meddling Mage names a planeswalker. Game is over in just a few minutes.
6-1-0
Round 4 - R/b Vial Goblins
Game 1 - I play a little sloppy and end up getting an Iona bounced to my hand. I stabilize with 3 Rhox War Monks and Wonder gets there all day.
Game 2: -1 Sower, -1 Clique, -1 Trygon Predator, +3 Path to Exile
I keep a hand with 2 Paths and a Swords with a Survival and some creatures. He starts the game with Leyline of the Void and Iona gets removed as a result. I end up missing one land drop but remove all his relevant creatures. Survival gets online and Heirarchs hit the board while chaining War Monks. A Meddling Mage on Warren's Weirding gets rid of the two in his hand revealed by Ringleader. I stabilize and Wonder gets there again.
8-1-0
Round 5 - Emrakul Show and Tell/Shelldock Isle.deck
We split after looking at some rankings to make sure our friends have a chance to get in...
8-1-1
Top 8 - Zoo
Game 1 - I am playing another friend and I end up keeping a hand with Hierarch and a War Monk. My Noble gets bolted but I draw another War Monk and stabilize quickly. He gets beat down by flying War Monks and I love Wonder more and more.
Game 2: -1 Trygon, -1 Clique, -1 Sower
We both keep our openers and he plays a 1st turn Nacatl. I play a Hierarch and on his turn he plays another Nacatl and misses a land drop. After I play a pridemage and block, he attempts to path his own dude. I counter and he misses another land drop. I get a Survival online and spellstutter counters another creature and ends up beating for about 12. A Meddling Mage on Path helps after he shows two in his hand after the game. An alpha strike with Wonder in the yard takes it down.
10-1-1
Top 4 - Budget Ad Nausem
He is playing some really weird version of ANT that seems a bit off the cusp. He had to leave and two other friends were in top 4 so we all decided to split after he offered me the win. I get $20 in store credit along with some much needed points.
Overall, I really like the way the deck played all night. I got good draws for the most part and I really felt in control of every game as a result. I LOVE Spellstutter Sprite and I LOVE Wonder. I will probably take out at least one Spellstutter for another War Monk though. He wins so many games by himself. I had a lot of fun and I really think this deck has a chance to beat anything that is thrown its way.
On a sideboard note, I will be taking out the Emrakul and probably the other Meddling Mage (I want to fit another in the main). Gaddock Teeg seems to be the way to go since I hate Moat, Wrath, and big Planeswalkers.
Hope these results help!
Congratulations on your finish. Seems like everything worked fine for you ;).
The list looks alot like mine except I play:
-wonder +rafiq
-Trygon + 2nd clique
-SSS + 4th RWM
-karakas +tundra (still no reanimator in sight in entire NL maybe 1 or 2 players) And still I think sower is a betteranswer.
I looked though the Top 64 Decklists from GP Madrid and found 4 (I know 1 is from Waikiki ;-)) Bant Survival Lists, two of them with 4 Vials.
I'am still not sure if they won't belong in this deck, so i wanted to know what you think ?
Because they weren't discussed here that much...
19th Place: Sergio Perez (with 4 Vials)
39th Place: Carlos Fernandez-Baillo (with 4 Vials)
44th Place: Ruben Medina Garcia (no Vials)
50th Place: Dennis Baauw (no Vials)
I was myself curious about trying Vials -- love those EOT shenanigans -- but I can't imagine cutting Hierarchs from this tight list. I also didn't see any recent lists with Vial on deckcheck.net... does anyone have some experience with Vial over Hierarch? Or maybe some kind of a split, like 3/3?
EDIT: I finally found those two Vial lists referred to above (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/19314.html), and there are a few conspicuous things: 1) they run both 4 Vials and 4 Hierarchs, and 2) both have 4 FoW but only 17 blue cards total! I can't imagine this is the optimal way to run Vials.
This is the problem you tend to run into when running Vials. It causes you to run much less blue cards and creatures for survival. When running vial, you gain the extra (and what I consider to be win more) eot tricks but you have much less consistency with other parts of your deck. Running this deck with vials changes much of the fabric of what makes it good: consistency.
Another big part of the argument against Vial is that when playing Bant Survival, you accept that there will be some amount of dead cards in many situations. This is offset by the fact that many of these dead cards are creatures (eg. Squee and Loyal Retainers/Iona) that can be discarded to Survival. This cannot be said about Vial and when playing this card, you must accept having even more dead draws late in the game and more cards to clutter your hand.
^^ all of this and more can be found earlier in the form. I think (and if I am wrong, someone please correct me) that most have decided that running Vial is unnecessary and mostly a cute trick.
I wonder why this deck apparently meets little success in big tournaments, and doesn't see all that much play.
Personally, this is the only deck I can win with. I scrub out with most everything else; to me it seems like this is clearly one of the easiest decks to play, or one of the most powerful decks relative to the skill requirement. However, I've seen comments here saying that the spellstutter sprites are difficult to use, and that meddling mages require being very well informed, so perhaps the issue is simply that I run dazes over the creature alternatives.
A brief history and introduction:
I started playing magic during onslaught block. Never was into standard, and about six years ago I built my first legacy deck (sneak attack based off Tsuyoshi Fujita's extended build); half a year later I built a more serious deck, RGSA (red green survival advantage).
I met with a lot of success with the deck, regularly doing very well at local tournaments. When flash hulk came out, I decided to quit magic (as in, not regularly go to tournaments), since combo was getting much better in general (even after flash hulk got banned), and my deck no longer looked like it could consistently bring me success.
About a year ago I got back into magic, and rather than using survival I started using a great variety of other decks that seemed obviously "better" based off how many people use them: cb-top, natural order cb-top, canadian thresh, grixis colored tempo-faeries, zoo, and goblins, to name some.
In general, my success was limited, only seeing a single win with some of the decks, and never consistent success.
Eventually I built bant survival, and I was met with instant success.
The tournaments I went to:
1) 31 people; went 4-1 into the top 8; played one round in the top 8 (win) to get into the top 4 and then split.
2) "Legacy win a box", GP side event. 8 person, single elimination. Lost to goblins round 1 thanks to some consistently poor top decks.
3) "Legacy for a laptor", other GP side event. 46 people, I went 4-2 to a useless 11th place.
4) 14 people; split 1st in the final.
5) 12 people; "casual non-rated legacy". 1st.
6) 20 people, 1st.
My experience may be biased, as most of my magic-career I played survival decks, and might not have gotten to much experience with the other decks I tried out before taking them to tournaments. However, bant survival plays quite differently from old RGSA decks. I think my results speak for themselves: this deck seems extremely good, and is probably easily one of the best decks in the format.
But, this should be more than obvious: this deck is very similar to many of the other decks, but runs a card that only costs "1G" and typically makes you win the game. Tarmogoyf is crap in comparison.
So, why the lack of major tournament success, and why would a deck that seems so obviously amazing ever have the potential to "fall off the radar"?
Many of those posting here seem to also have consistent success.
Iona, followed by a next turn rafiq = 16+ damage. A single noble hierarch makes it 18, which is generally lethal (2 fetchlands is fairly common).
It's fairly easy imo. I do well even in big tournaments. The deck is hard to pilot tho. And loyal retainers aren't easy to come by so alot of people do not play the deck.
@Vials : I won't give up the discussion ;-)
> the bluecount, thats a Problem right, but that can be fixed by adding more blue cards.
> i know that vials were allready dicussed a few months ago, but perhaps they are good now. I looked though the lists from gp madrid and found it very interesting that the best 2 lists both had vials, so i thought that would be a interesting point to discuss, but if you think no, then ok.
> I play this deck for a year now, and i think vials can solve some of its problems...but i must admit it creates new ones , but it was only an attempt to test new/old ideas in another light....perhaps its only my playstyle which brings me to vials..
I've generally been finding in many faster matchups (Merfolk, Goblins, and sometimes Zoo) that going for the Iona combo seems a bit slow. I was just wondering if it was a bit clunky to do in some matchups. My meta is infested with Tribal, so I always find myself going to aggro route, with creature beatdown and not really worrying about Iona (ex. Goblins has active Vials, Iona really doesn't do much, you know what I mean?) I'm just wondering if I'm playing it correctly in these situations.
-Matt
It still has been doing well, it just doesn't see the same success as something like Zoo or Merfolk because of how little it is played. Bant Survival is one of the most expensive decks in the format. The deck is still very playable without Retainers too but I am not sure if a lot of people recognize that.
It is also very difficult to pilot effectively. It is strong which helps, but the little things can make or break anything in Legacy and this deck has a lot of them. Using Brainstorm effectively, knowing what to save counters for, what to get with Survival, when to get basics, what to name with Mage, how to use Sprite, and of course metagaming it effectively. The first time I played the deck, I played it terribly. Cast the wrong cards at the wrong time, didn't save counters/removal for more important things, etc. But I was still able to win because Survival is probably the strongest engine in the format (or right behind Loam). Put that in a blue shell and the deck becomes resilient, consistent, and gets better matchups all around.
In the larger tournaments, the strength of the deck can't pull you out wins like at locals so playing the deck optimally will get you far.
And people have been doing that.
First place for a Lotus in the Northeast US
Obviously there's more but this is a recent example.
Which is awesome... but you already have an Iona out. There are very few situations where winning 2 turns faster matters when you have Survival and Iona on the battlefield. My feelings are mixed with Rafiq because he was so amazing as the "Iona" before we had Iona. He was the go to guy to win the game and I loved playing with him. Now, I would much rather go for Iona when I have five mana. Still, 20 point life swings with Rhox War Monk, winning out of no where, etc make him good, but his ass of three sucks.Iona, followed by a next turn rafiq = 16+ damage. A single noble hierarch makes it 18, which is generally lethal (2 fetchlands is fairly common).
I like playing him in my deck for local tournaments just because of how much fun he is. He still might be decent competitively though too.
Easier said than done, my friend.
It is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily mean they should be in. Sub-optimal lists win all of the time. I am not saying Vials are inferior, but from my testing, the deck is better without them. Without them, the creature and blue counts can be at comfortable levels and there are less dead draws later on. This is especially important because this deck thrives on playing as normal as possible without Survival. It has enough dead draws in the form of Squee, Iona, and Retainers.> i know that vials were allready dicussed a few months ago, but perhaps they are good now. I looked though the lists from gp madrid and found it very interesting that the best 2 lists both had vials, so i thought that would be a interesting point to discuss, but if you think no, then ok.
Anyway, with the top 2 lists running them, it was definitely worth rethinking and retesting them. They weren't good for me.
What problems does Vial solve? And it is fine to to bring up old ideas or cards to try them again, it's just that it was tried a short time ago and the deck hasn't changed. I think you should test it if you feel this storngly about it. Then, come back with your results.> I play this deck for a year now, and i think vials can solve some of its problems...but i must admit it creates new ones , but it was only an attempt to test new/old ideas in another light....perhaps its only my playstyle which brings me to vials..
I noted some mistakes I made; one game my opponent cast small pox and I discarded a ponder instead of an iona in case I draw a survival =/. Fairly dumb in hindsight: ponder would see if I was going to draw one any time soon, and if so could help find a creature to. Otherwise, it wouldn't simply be a dead card. Later that game I topdecked loyal retainers and wanted to shoot myself.
I haven't tested the deck without retainers, but I really like it in that it makes survival a huge instant-threat. After weaning off of angry-roffelos survival decks, loyal retainers-iona feels similarly powerful-and even more in the short term. Perhaps this is why I also kept running rafiq.
The problem with those other survival decks was often a lack of consistency (if they didn't have survival), terrible combo matchup (especially if they lacked black), and poor early game. The blue shell definitely helps all of this, which is why I initially opted for daze, as that is a free spell to help with the early game, and also combo. As most blue decks run it, it seemed a clear choice for a "running without survival" plan as well.
My lack of mages and sprites, and having past experience with survival (cutting down some things in your list of difficulty to play), is perhaps why I found it easier to play and do well with relative to other decks-alongside the deck's tremendous strength.
I'll stick with the deck at local tournaments, and hopefully eventually get a chance to try it out in a larger one.
I'll also be sure to test mages and sprites considering most run them over dazes-and be sure to test them for some time before considering reverting, due to their apparent difficulty (which would mean I should expect less success at first).
Cool to see, thanks.
3 spell pierces main was perhaps the most interesting, but only 3 brainstorms was also. I always like to see brainstorm, and it often makes the difference between a mulligan and solid-looking hand.
The data on Madrid showed that survival had quite decent percentage penetration into high rankings as well.
That is true; I also often find Rafiq to be one of the easiest things to side out. I'll be sure to try and keep better track of how often he helps/was unnecessary. Making more space is good.
Normally when I've used him it was for heavy flying damage-but in that case he seems similar to wonder (which I haven't tried out yet).
Among the 4 gp top 64 lists and the lotus tournament list, only 1 had rafiq, and only 1 had wonder, so it seems neither are necessary.
The total cost of the deck isn't that bad; much less than lands, and not much worse than other bant decks considering total value of the dual lands. Most people may feel bad though for spending $100+ on an otherwise worthless card, when compared to tabernacle or dual lands.
It is good to see that it is often successful. It still just seemed strange that the deck doesn't get more attention when it seems like such a strong deck.
@Jak : Thanks for your answer. One of the Problem i was speaking about was mansscrew, and keeping landlight hands thanks to vial (which was very good in my testing). The other one was the merfolk matchup.
But no discussion anymore i will test and will see.... ;-)
By the way though the bannings perhaps a lot of things will change we will see...
I can speak for Vial as it basically saw play in Spain. Indeed, there was a huge controversy regarding that card in spanish forums and many people claimed that they wouldn't play the deck without Vial. The main argument was that the deck is very mana hungry and you hadn't the mana to get Survival going and play your disruption/cantrips effectively, at least not as effectively as many people would like. I can say that T1 Vial followed by T2 Survival is one of the most awesome things you could see. You can force all your guys and have free mana to Survival in shit. This is specially useful when you are manascrewed or low in green mana/forced to fetch basics; we all have suffered that situation of having only one green mana available and Survival in play. Anyway, Vial was also a threat of his own against Blue based decks, and another must counter. Eventually, I felt that you didn't need to run the full set, as Vial wasn't as crucial to our gameplan as it was to Merfolks o Goblins. A T3 Vial was useful too as a mean to cheat our big boys in play.
There was also another controversy regarding Spellsutter Sprite. We all found it too mana intensive, and if you played the deck aggresively, as this isn't Countertop, leaving two mana open felt very strange. Yeah, I know, you play your guys and save Sprite to protect their asses, but it still felt weird. In fact, during months Sprite was cut from the deck, even in this thread, in spite it has been reconsidered now. Many people suggested that Sprite could be more playable in Vial versions, as it was easier to leave the mana open or Vial it into play.
However, the card changes how the deck feels, and it becomes kind of aggresive.
What I want to state is that the Vial thing was not a suboptimal list, at least in the sense of being the weird tech of your local nerd, but it has been debated over months in the spanish community and it has shown results. Even two guys made it to the top 64 with Aether Vial versions at Madrid (which anybody who attended can tell you is damn hard) as you have seen. This doesn't prove anything, but it deserves some respect.
However, in the post Retainers era many people found that it if you wanted to play Vial+Retainers, the deck became too random and started to get excesively Survival-dependant so I think it has been abandoned, mainly because players who liked the more aggresive approach switched to other things like Stoneforge Mystic based decks and other shit.
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
So would you recommend running vials in the list if it wasn't going to include the Iona + Retainers combo? I understand that it is really good, but before dropping the money on Retainers I would like to test other options, and I am wondering if vials would work.
On Progenitus and Elephant Grass:
Planeswalker: Progenitus, I command you to attack!
Progenitus: I'm not going in there...there could be elephants in there!
In my opinion, if you don't have Retainers + Iona combo in your build, Vial might help compensate for the lack of an "I Win" button, but it does drastically change the way the deck plays.
All depends on what playstyle you're most comfortable with, I guess.
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