So with the coming B/R changes the loss of Mystical Tutor slams both ANT and Reanimator hard whilst in theory promotes more controllish decks to flourish in the new Zoo-centric meta.
In other words: Nice.
yes very :D!Originally Posted by Infinitium
How are the ESG`s for you guys?
I normally don`t need this 2nd mana on the first turn and 3 on 2nd is often enough good enough.
Sometimes good, sometimes dead. But it does wonders when Natural Order/Regal Force sucks all the mana. Anyway, I cut it down to 3 abd added a third Elvish Visionary, because while comboing, drawing into lands and ESG messes up the whole thing.
I glanced back through the thread but I am not positive... What is the consensus on the inclusion of Natural Order and to a lesser extent Regal vs Progenitus with Natural Order?
In my testing I have found that Natural order slows down the combo dramatically, but adds a secondary win condition. Basically, I would suggest playing natural order if you want to go for the progenitus combo when you get it, but if you're primary target is Regal Force then I would recommend sticking with another tutor.
I definatally think that natural order isnt as good as chord of calling or wierd harvest. The main reason is that i feel if you can wierd harvest for 2 it probably will win the game faster than getting a 10/10 and winning in 2 turns.
I've read both this thread and the elves "aggro" one, wondering which I wanted to try more. I know a lot from this thread focuses on NO, but I'd appreciate some love or hate for the following list. I'm aware it deviates slightly from the initial post in this thread, in that I am not running Nettle Sentinels.
13 Forest
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
3 Joraga Warcaller
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Sylvan Messenger
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Concordant Crossroads
1 Hurricane
2 Staff of Domination
SB
Up for grabs based on your metagame.
I'm typically comboing out on turn 3 or 4. When I can't get a combo going, I can usually swing for the fences on turn 3 or 4 with six 5/5's or something like that. Emrakul has come out on the fourth turn without a combo off the staff or with Glimpses. The Hurricane is there instead of having Birchlore Rangers and running a Banefire or a Brain Freeze or Grapeshot. I also have draws where it looks like a great hand and ends up doing nothing. I'm not the most brilliant player, having just returned to the game after about 13 years away. A lot has changed. Anyways, I'd appreciate any feedback.
Since you run Crossroads I'd argue that Hurricane/Emrakul are largely superflous as you can swing for the win the same turn you combo out anyhow. Granted Emrakul has some utility against Lands and Brain Freeze, but it is still largely superflous as you can win without it. I'd also run a 4/2 split between the Wirewoods/Quirions, as Symbiote has so much utility in elf decks and helps you combo out smoother. Speaking of which, no Visionaries? I'd say they're pretty much mandatory in anything running Glimpse since they allow you to combo out reliably off only one Glimpse (and especially with Symbiote backup). I'd cut the Spirit Guides for them (this will slow the deck down by a fraction of a turn, but since elves can never compete with true glass cannon combos anyway I say focus on reliability and resilience instead).
I'm personally eh about Staff of Domination since it isn't a creature and isn't spectacular without engine backing, but whatever works for you.
Nexus I would cut the rangers for nettle sentinal. I just don't see how one would get more untaps out of rangers than nettle. I mean the whole nettle heritge druid interaction is an engine in itself of going off that doesn't required untaping mana guys.
I find myself Pacting for Sentinels more than any other card in the deck. Once you get 3 out you're basically golden.
I think natural order should be an inclusion in most lists, and I play 3 copies in my most recent one.
I don't recommend playing 4 copies of it because it can slow down the main combo and you generally only want one copy in your hand. However, the fact that you can "auto-win" against shitty matchups or situations is just too good to pass up I think. Another nice perk of playing a few copies of NO is that you can keep the extra copies in your sideboard to pull them out against zoo, countertop, and similar annoyances who can easily mess up your glimpse combo.
I play with 1 copy of both progenitus and regal force in my deck, and my NO target is always based on:
Is there a realistic chance that my opponent can win after progenitus? If not -> progenitus (obviously ;p)
If yes, then I estimate how likely it is that I can "go off" with regal force faster than I could win with progenitus. If its extremely likely, then I'll probably take the risk (knowing that even if I fizzle, I will still be in an awesome board position).
For example, you rarely want to fetch progenitus against combo (unless its early and you have no better looking options for the next few turns), and you rarely want to fetch regal force against zoo (unless you think its likely they could burn you out before progenitus deals lethal).
PS: on a random note, it has never happened to me for the best NO target to be anything other than regal force or progenitus, both in solo and actual playtesting.
I was thinking about the budget variant of the deck. School is coming, so I don't think I'll be able to drop a hundred dollars for NO's and Progs.
Yes, it does add another win condition to the deck, and IMO the best version of it is with Natural Order. But I was thinking about the alternatives.
I really like Hivemaster, because I think that he's still very good in Legacy as he was good in Extended. The kill on turn 2 is absolutely possible if the Glimpse resolves, but without Natural Order, Combo elves actually scoops to almost anything that is blue or a black card named Thoughtseize. That's what I don't like, buuut, every combo deck doesn't like those cards.
Anyway, I'm thinking is it the way to go or not..
the decklist looks something like this :
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Elvish Visionary
2x Wirewood Hivemaster
2x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Eternal Witness
1x Regal Force
1x Mirror Entity
1x Predator Dragon/Brain Freeze/Grapeshot
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Glimpse of Nature
3x Chord of Calling
11x Forest
this is the budget variant. anyway, I miss more 1cc elves while going of, so I'm wondering how to fix it.
Ok, yesterday I played the deck in a 30-man tournament placing 9th..
My matchups were:
round 1: Fearie stompy 0-2
Both games chalice at 1 lands quick, he fows my NO and he gets around choke with seadrake. GG
Round 2: Zoo 2-1
I combo out on turn 3 game 1, game 2 I go for turn 2 progenitus after he volcanic fallouts my board, he surprises me with mindbreaktrap here. Game 3 I get quick progenitus which seals the deal.
Round 3: Mono Black Depths 2-0
Game 1 I combo out, Game 2 quick progenitus seals the deal.
Round 4: Landstill 2-0
Game 1 I have Symbiote+visionary engine for lots of CA, and when he drops standstill I combo right through it. Game 2 I manage to resolve an early NO which seals the deal.
Round 5: Excalibur 0-2
I keep 2 bad hans and he removes/counters my spells and gets Jitte. NO gets countered. GG Same in g2.
Round 6: Dredge 2-1
Game 1 he fizzles his dredge, I combo right over him. Game 2 I keep a hand without crypt, which is dumb. I lose. Game 3, combo gets there in turn 2.
9th Place, I am very satisfied with the deck, there are some thing that am not very happy with.
I used this list:
1#Viridian Shaman
4#Nettle Sentinel
4#Elvish Visionary
4#Wirewood Symbiote
3#Quirion Ranger
1#Progenitus
3#Fyndhorn Elves
4#Heritage Druid
1#Regal Force
1#Banefire
4#Glimpse of Nature
3#Natural Order
3#Summoner’s Pact
15#Forest
1#Elvish Spirit Guide
4#Llanowar Elves
4#Birchlore Rangers
// sideboard
1#Viridian Shaman
1#Imperious Perfect
1#Elvish Champion
4#Krosan Grip
4#Tormod's Crypt
4#Choke
Im cutting the Viridian Shaman from the MD, I dont like it there. Also pact was only usefull during combo, at any other time it was too dangerous due to removal. Banefire was nice when comboing but I rather have something that also works outside the combo.
As for the Sideboard, It worked nice all day. I wasnt that impressed by choke tho. I might cut them for null rods, anyone ever tried that before? And maybe I change the Shaman in an additional NO target which might help in some matchups.
I am going to test with the following changes:
-1 banefire
-1 summoner's pact
-1 viridian shaman
-1 Snow-covered forest
+3 joraga warcaller
+1 Pendelhaven
and for the sb:
-4 choke
+4 null rod
I'll tell you how its going!
~Maarten
Anyone ever tested worldly tutor as a replacement of summoner's pact? It seems to me that its better when you arent comboing, since they cant get you with removal, but it might be slightly worse when you are in fact comboing.
Also: anyone has experience with null rod in the sideboard? Works against stacks decks/ EE etc.
~Maarten
So I want to try out a list with Concordant Crossroads as the win along with Warcaller, would a singleton Immaculate Magistrate be overkill?
With crossroads yes, and I think even without yes :P
Thoughts on worldy tutor? :D!
If you have Glimpse up, shouldn't be a problem. If you're not in a rush, shouldn't be a problem. See how it does, definitely. I like Pact for building Storm in a pinch.
Hmm yea I'll check it out. I dont play a storm based kill so that doesnt matter for me ;). I'll test it and check how it works.
I also will check if running just Jorega warcaller is enough to kill on the turn you combo off, or if you need Crossroads or geae's cradle or smthn to make it bigger.
I usually have quite a lot of mana left over when I storm out and get Stifled. Warcaller is by far the best sink.
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