[Deck] GW Survival

[f|i[p]]

As for me.

As for the aether vials, I may have cut some creatures for it, but I am positive that it won me more games than if I didn't have them at all. I actually find it hard to play survival without vials. Survival is soo mana intensive that I'd always want something to help me with mana.

As for the 3rd color, I think brainstorm is nuts. This deck needs that extra dig sometimes.Rhox warmonk is soo much better than finks, as its far out of burn range and stops aggro cold. But mana base can be an issue. I guess this will be meta dependent and player dependent.

If I were to go the vengevine route, I would try to put in the iona retainers combo still. Its power is just underestimated. Vengevine is strong but I still think Iona shuts down so many things that I wouldn't want her out. Maybe its metagame dependent as well. If there was a way to put both in one mix, I would probably do so

[Philipp2293]

Nice finish on the Magic League Trial. I guess the missing card from Deckcheck is a Stoneforge Mystic? How did he work out?

[DrJones]

Here's the decklist I gathered together. I'm testing new ideas and so far I like the way it's going, but the deck seems weak in the mirror, the deck that goes second always loses to Iona lock, even with Weathered Wayfarer and Knight looking for Karakas, and Survival looking for the Archer.

4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Riftstone Portal

1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thornweald Archer
3 Weathered Wayfarer

4 Mox Diamond
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Empyrial Armor

Any ideas?

[majikal]

Here's the decklist I gathered together. I'm testing new ideas and so far I like the way it's going, but the deck seems weak in the mirror, the deck that goes second always loses to Iona lock, even with Weathered Wayfarer and Knight looking for Karakas, and Survival looking for the Archer.

4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Riftstone Portal

1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thornweald Archer
3 Weathered Wayfarer

4 Mox Diamond
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Empyrial Armor

Any ideas?

4 Mox Diamond with only 21 lands? Seems kind of sketchy.

[DrJones]

4 Mox Diamond with only 21 lands? Seems kind of sketchy.

I previously also had Tithe, but I'm currently testing Weathered Wayfarer. I suspect that having more lands will only make Wayfarer less useful and make it worse later in the game while in Topdecking mode. This is of course just theory, but I started with 24 lands and since then I've been lowering the amount.

[Tao]

Your version doesnt seem like an improvement. New ideas are usually welcome but that list looks random. The deck only gets worse by replacing all Swords to Plowshares and 3rd and 4th copies of important creatures with Squadron Hawk and Empyrial Armor. These two cards are very bad on their own and still at best mediocre when you draw both.
Also the deck has a very low curve so Mox Diamond is no big help, but one less spell you draw whereas Hierarch puts pressure on your opponent, doesn't need 2 lands to work, has synergy with Survival and also synergy with Wayfarer.

@ Rhox War Monk: I don't think the Mana base can support it. Wastelands are too important and often you want to have 2 Basic Forests in play to fight through Wastelands. Also the matchup against Lands gets much worse by reducing the number of Forests from 4 to 2.

@Atwa:
Eternal Witness: The main reasons to cut her were to play more aggressive, to get less dependent on the Graveyard and to lessen the number of cards with CMC 3. It is no bad card by all means and I wouldn't criticize anyone for playing her but I rarely miss her.
Iona/Retainers: There are just not enough games that you won't win with Vengevines but win with Iona to justify playing 2 dead cards. Also make yourself aware that if you want to play Witness, Squee and the Retainers Combo you will have to cut a whole playset of another card - or play some cards randomly only 2 or 3 times which would be even worse.
Cutting Wayfarer: Still keep the base like it is. 23 lands with 4 Forest, 4 Canopies and 3 Wastelands seems to be the best for me, Wayfarer or not. If you play with Vial (like flip) you should also reduce the number of lands.

[DrJones]

Your version doesnt seem like an improvement. New ideas are usually welcome but that list looks not good at all. The deck only gets worse by replacing all Swords to Plowshares and 3rd and 4th copies of important creatures with Squadron Hawk and Empyrial Armor. These two cards are very bad on their own and still at best mediocre when you draw both.
Also the deck has a very low curve so Mox Diamond is no big help, but one less spell you draw whereas Hierarch puts pressure on your opponent, doesn't need 2 lands to work, has synergy with Survival and also synergy with Wayfarer.

Well, let me defend my choices a bit:

1. I run 4 swords to plowshares.
2. Second. Squadron Hawk is a "draw three" for Survival, which in turn allows to search for more creatures. I also feel the decklists currently don't run enough creatures with evasion and/or able to block fliers.
3. Empyrial Armor usually gives a boost of at least +5/+5 (usually more) due to the refilling hand ability of Squadron Hawk, previously I used the equipment package, but I felt stupid doing that when Empyrial kills in two attacks and I run Mother of the Runes.
4. Mox Diamond has much better synergy with Knight of the Round and Wayfarer than Hierarch, with the added benefit that it doesn't have summoning sickness and is less vulnerable to removal, giving really explosive starts. Do the math if you are not sure.

What are the creatures you feel I should run more of?

Edit: Current changes +1 Wasteland -1 empyrial -1 archer +1 faerie macabre

[Atwa]

@Atwa:
Eternal Witness: The main reasons to cut her were to play more aggressive, to get less dependent on the Graveyard and to lessen the number of cards with CMC 3. It is no bad card by all means and I wouldn't criticize anyone for playing her but I rarely miss her.
Iona/Retainers: There are just not enough games that you won't win with Vengevines but win with Iona to justify playing 2 dead cards. Also make yourself aware that if you want to play Witness, Squee and the Retainers Combo you will have to cut a whole playset of another card - or play some cards randomly only 2 or 3 times which would be even worse.
Cutting Wayfarer: Still keep the base like it is. 23 lands with 4 Forest, 4 Canopies and 3 Wastelands seems to be the best for me, Wayfarer or not. If you play with Vial (like flip) you should also reduce the number of lands.

After my post yesterday I started putting the deck together and the list only includes the Vengevines. I think your observation about Iona in a list along with Vengevine is correct.

I do however play -1 Horizon Canopy, +1 Fetch. I don't know about this deck, but I've played New Horizons for a while now and I hate the 4th Canopy. 3x Canopy along with 4 Knights is far enough for my taste.

As for the other 4 open spots, I'm testing out 1x Teeg, 1x Witness and 2x Finks. I was tempted to try out Stoneforger with an equipment package, but decided against it for reasons I explained in my previous post: I want to play as many creatures as possible in case I don't get a Survival.

As for sideboarding, has anyone tried out Null Rod in the side? It seems pretty strong against merfolks Jittes, Ants accelerators, graveyard hate, EE and all other sorts of things. The only problems I see is they'll also get hit by boarded Grips (against Survival) and you can't really tutor for them. Any opinions?

[f|i[p]]

@Dr Jones list.
The Mox diamond would just take up space, it takes up more space than noble heirarchs because you usually have to run around 24 lands. Its also not a creature.
In all honesty I don't think wayfarer fits the meta game right now. The meta game is too aggressive for wayfarer.
I also dont agree with having less than 3 qasali pridemages. I think 3 is the minimum.
Empyrial armor, although strong, it relies on your hand size too much, Unlike jitte that can give you so much more. This will make your deck rely on hand as well as graveyard.I usually have 2-3 cards in hand when I play survival around the mid game.It only means you have to do things like go squadron hawk just to make sure you get to use your empyrial armor to its potential even when you don't actually need it.

Against the mirror, bant or gw or rock. The first to survival usually wins the game(reason why you shouldnt go down to less than 3 pridemage). .Specially against bant Survival as they run Kira and counterspell for protection.

@eternal witness, I used to run them as well, and I never really missed them at all.

@Null rod, I think its a possible sideboard card, even if it gets hit by krosan grip. It makes your opponent decide if they should spend K grip on the rod or survival of the fittest. The thing is when people actually try to bring in graveyard hate against us, it makes their deck weaker. We don't really rely on the graveyard as much as you think. Specially if you are planning to run the vengevine instead of Iona.

[conboy31]

DrJones, I would never run 4 mox diamonds in a list that has less than 24 lands unless: I am using Ad Naseum or my deck has multiple draw 7s. Survival has neither. In your list, the best use of the mox diamonds appear to be that they will be dead in your hand, uncastable (obviously you still could w/no benefit), but provide a +1/+1 for Empyrial Armor.

I could be wrong, let me know how you do.

[DrJones]

DrJones, I would never run 4 mox diamonds in a list that has less than 24 lands unless: I am using Ad Naseum or my deck has multiple draw 7s. Survival has neither. In your list, the best use of the mox diamonds appear to be that they will be dead in your hand, uncastable (obviously you still could w/no benefit), but provide a +1/+1 for Empyrial Armor.

I could be wrong, let me know how you do.

Conboy, the trick is that I do refill my hand with lands by using cards like Weathered Wayfarer or Tithe. these 3x Wayfarer are the lands you are missing. However, I have to agree that the Wayfarer is not as good with Mox Diamond as Tithe was due to it having summoning sickness and only finding a land at a time, which is why I've raised the wasteland count by one for now. I'll test it a bit before choosing if I keep playing wayfarer or switch again to tithe. While wayfarer works better with survival, tithe works better with empyrial and I don't need that many creatures because I can always search for Hawk and get three more.

You are right about it providing a +1/+1 for empyrial, though, and it also provides a +1/+1 for Goyf if needed.

On another hand, Flores has said that the hawk is one of the best cards in M11 and that I should be pairing it with Vengevine. Of course he is talking about Standard, but is a play that I have to try. I think the hawk is underrated, because it basically reads "1W. Draw three cards and put a 1/1 flying creature in play".

[Shabbaman]

4 Empyrial Armor

This card doesn't really help you in the mirror. As a matter of fact, does it help in any matchup? What you could try against Iona is to get Karakas in play, or put a Jitte on a creature and use the counters to get rid of it. Anything that doesn't involve Empyrial armor seems like a good deal ;) Or splash black for Big Game Hunter?

[DrJones]

This card doesn't really help you in the mirror. As a matter of fact, does it help in any matchup? What you could try against Iona is to get Karakas in play, or put a Jitte on a creature and use the counters to get rid of it. Anything that doesn't involve Empyrial armor seems like a good deal ;) Or splash black for Big Game Hunter?

It's downright impossible to beat Iona with Jitte in this deck unless the opponent is stupid enough to say green instead of white, however I added Faerie Macabre to test if it can stop reanimation shenanigans. It doesn't stop show and tell, but with show and tell I can play my own Iona.

Another option is to add the Vengevine combo, so when the opponent names white, I have a nonwhite path to victory with Survival.

[Tao]

@ Dr Jones: I am a bit blind, so pardon that I didn't see the Swords in your list. But I still think that your ideas take the deck to a different, less synergetic, direction. Empyrial Armor can be awesome, but it also is a potential dead card or card disadvantage. I would also never even think of playing Empyrial Armor in a format with Elspeth.

@ Null Rod: I think that is a great idea!
- It will work out well vs. Tarmogoyf-Countertop because they probably bring in Yard Hate and it obviously gets Top and Explosives, too (and maybe Shackles or something).
- Countertop-Thopter is a strong new deck that everyone should be aware of and the Rod makes their Top, Foundry, Shackles and Explosives do nothing.
- Also it works well against 43 Lands because of the importance of Mindslaver and Explosives for their deck and it gets their Mox Diamonds.
- Playing it on turn 2 against Storm Combo can be a random win.
- Siding it in against Merfolk is probably beneficial, too, because it gets Vial and Relic (and maybe also the lesser played Jitte or Crypt).

That's five important decks it would be worth sideboarding against and it is also great against a good number of oddball decks: Vs. MUC it gets Shackles, Relic and Powder Keg (or Explosives in splash versions). Vs. Mighty Quinn it gets Top, Grindstone and Isochron Scepter. Vs. Imperial Painter it gets Moxen, Grindstone and Equipment and should you run into some guy from 2004 with Affinity you know it is party time.

Since you mostly side Rod in vs. blue decks it wouldn't work well in a Tutor based SB. Spending more Mana on a card and risking card disadvantage sucks against blue decks. So i would be 2 or 3. It will be hard to make room for it, but it should be possible. Don't be worried that they might Grip it. It will be a 1-1 trade with 1 Mana gained for you.

[Waikiki]

Very nice Idea! I like it.

On a sidenote. Since you dropped squee from the deck. How do you find making CA with survival. Is in most cases just overwheliming with vengi enough or dont you want some sort of CA after they find a way to deal with them?

[Windux]

I often want to have the Squee.
There are times, where I just want to search a Kitchen Finks or Goyf just to stall the game long enough, to search for the Vengevines to attack him in 2 rounds, because I don't have enough mana.
Or just to play some creatures, before I start to search the Vv's to overrun him as a surprise.

[Waikiki]

So would be 4 vengevine to be the best or would 3 be possible aswell?

[Valdez]

I often want to have the Squee.
There are times, where I just want to search a Kitchen Finks or Goyf just to stall the game long enough, to search for the Vengevines to attack him in 2 rounds, because I don't have enough mana.
Or just to play some creatures, before I start to search the Vv's to overrun him as a surprise.

->Squee->Finks->play Finks = 5 mana for 1 critter
->Squee->Goyf->play Goyf = 4 mana for 1 critter.
->Vv->BR->Mother-> play Mother = 4 Mana for 3 critters.

But still know what you mean, I've replaced 1Vv with a Squee.

[conboy31]

Looking at the recent Japan legacy championships, some momentum with SCG, and my local meta there appears to be a significant upwards trend regarding planeswalkers.

I think the deck may want to take that into account. Vvs have been huge with their haste, as that can blindside the walkers. I have been pondering an additional card to combat the walkers. My thoughts have been A) a creature with evasion ie flying or something even more exotic. B) a manland that can fight a walker after being swept and Vvs are not online.

[f|i[p]]

Took this deck in a 34 or so man tourney yesterday... Its still basically GW but I splashed some black, to get me a B.shredder or shreikmaw.

I called it mashup survival since it was more of everything put into one deck.. however its base is still GW hence I posted it here.

I took 1st with a 4-1-1 record in the swiss and a 3-0 in the finals.

21 lands

4 bayou
4savannah
3 forest
1 plains
6 fetch lands
1 maze of ith
1 gaeas cradle
1 karakas

24 creatures
2 noble heirarch
2 birds of paradise
3 mother of runes
4 qasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
1 stoneforge mystic
1 scryb ranger
2 knight of the reliquary
1 bone shredder
1 shreikmaw
1 iona
1 squee
1 loyal retainers

16 spells
4 survival
4 stp
4 aether vial
2 senseis divining top
1 jitte
1 basilisk collar

SB:
Its basically the normal sideboard except that I added
2 extirpates and
2 sudden spoiling(was meant for progenitus or creatures I couldnt handle normally)

just a quick tourney rep.
G1 merfolks..draw.. Didn't get to finish in time. I guess I shuffled to slow.
G2 Ichorid -2-0
G3 -- forgot what I faced but I won.
G4 Rbgoblins 0-2 lost to 3 perishes
G5 BW deadguy variant 2-0
G6 GW aggro 2-0

FINALS
G1-U wizards 2-0
G2-Ur dreadstill with painter grindstone -2-0
G3-Bant survival 2-0.. finally won against bant survival. (won both games without survival ever getting online)

If theres something I would fix, I would have to see if I could reduce the birds to 1 pc and add another noble heirarch.
I want another Knight of the reliquary in there..
Sensei was good and it really did help me smooth out my draws. Specially when I had knight and fetch lands...

If I were to take out the mini stone forge tool box I would replace it with a lifelink creature.And I don't think finks can do it... I usually rush to Iona against zoo then equip it with basilisk...to gain some life to get out of burn range.

The problem I often get is that sometimes I get stuck with drawing 1/1 creatures like mother or noble and such. Having no real threats.. But well it still did good...