Just some possibilities of Anti-Zoo tech:Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Propaganda
Consign to Dream
Stifle
Wasteland
Permafrost Trap
Hibernation
Back to Basics
Controlled Instincts
Dream Tides
Mind Harness
I have to be honest, and maybe haven't done enough testing, but how often does Jitte actually swing the match in our favor? Also, is Hydroblast necessary, or can it be replaced by other cards that stop red.dec?
Draw, play Island, GG?
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Obviously new here... been playing off and on for a while and getting back into it now.
anyway - from my testing over the past 6 months or so, jitte has owned in multiple matchups. maybe it's just the meta that i've been playing in - but it has been a star for me in both speeding up my clock as well as taking out some trouble creatures that resolve for my opponent (mother of runes, goblin piledriver, etc). cursecatcher into jitte almost always make my opponents frown.
here is the list i currently have sleeved up for reference (a bit dredge heavy in my meta, hence the echoing truth):
4 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
4 lord of atlantis
3 coralhelm commander
4 merrow reejerey
4 aether vial
2 umezawa's jitte
4 force of will
4 daze
4 standstill
3 stifle
4 island
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
4 mutavault
SB:
4 engineered plague
3 submerge
2 kira
2 llawan
2 relic of progenetis
2 echoing truth
Conventional wisdom is that mana-screwing Zoo works sometimes, countering their removal works sometimes (although very rarely), Kira is good in the match-up, and you're really hoping that they keep a shitty hand. It's not like winning against Zoo with a mono-blue list is impossible, but it's damn well improbable.
As far as your sideboard, it looks pretty good. There might be a couple tweaks that I would try, such as:
- Doing 3 Crypt/ 2 Relic, if Ichorid really is 1/4 of your meta. However, if this has been working so far changing it would be unnecessary, since Relic is the better card in a vacuum.
- Using a total of 5 slots on Hydroblast/BEB seems sort of like it could be a bad sign... If your local meta is crawling out the ass with Zoo, Goblins, and scrubby red decks like Burn, the bottom line is that Merfolk wouldn't be the right deck to run. On the other hand, this might just indicate that your meta already has a lot of positive match-ups and you just want to be prepared for the worst, rather than wasting slots on cards which answer less problematic match-ups. Why is it that you're so stocked up on BEB exactly? Do you feel like they're really necessary in your meta?
- Jitte still feels a little like a playstyle preference to me, although obviously there are enough lists that have placed well using it to justify its inclusion. I do feel obligated to mention that my experience with it has made me not like siding it in against Zoo though.
- I'm not sure if you use Spell Pierce in the main, but I think there are pretty strong arguments for putting 2-3 of them somewhere in your 75. I'd go so far as to say I like the card.
- Ditto with Kira. Especially in mono-blue, I really like 2 Kira, and I usually just squeeze them into the main if I can.
- Lastly, Back to Basics can be pretty boss against Zoo if you can stall/mana-screw them long enough to make it relevant. It's also just a powerful card in many other match-ups, and it's one more that I might try playing with.
Anyhow. I hope these thoughts are somewhat enlightening.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
- Some of the Ichorid decks are packing the White leyline. 3/2 Relic/Crypt makes sense.
- the 5 B.E.B effects are only for 1 Zoo deck and 1 Goblins deck, everything else has Islands. I mean everything. I was just looking for a card that I could us in both of the Goblin and Zoo match-ups.
- Jitte has been fine. I like it. If it comes active against Zoo, I feel much more comfortable.
- I run Spierce maindeck.
- I haven't tried Kira, I'll look into it.
- Back to basics would be good against all of the control decks too.
Depending on your sideboard back to basics plus propaganda is a very good lock against zoo while giving you decent cards against tribal and control (except for that thopter crap), but depending on the hand they get it can be too late to matter. Spell pierce helps almost as much against zoo as blue blast with the obvious exception of lavamancer. Kira is the absolute nuts against a lot of decks and I have always advocated running 2 main, especially with coralhelm commander, who is absolutely a 4-of IMO.
Also you need to keep aggressive hands and plan to finish before the late game where they get a lavamancer or can just top deck burns to kill you. Kira is the best answer I've found in mono blue
Two more thoughts:
-It might be kind of fun to split BEB with Mind Harness, since it's pretty good against Zoo and Goblins also. Granted, it's a little worse against Grim Lavamancer (which I basically consider the bane of this deck's existence, lol). But it helps you race, whereas BEB doesn't. And these two match-ups put you in a situation where you pretty much have to race.
-I've always heard rumors of people doing well using Chalice of the Void against Zoo. Personally, I think it looks pretty good on paper, but I haven't tried it myself. It would also depend a lot on your meta, whether or not it would be a worthwhile inclusion.
EDIT: While we're discussing the Zoo match-up, I was wondering what people take out for games 2 and 3. I'm thinking it makes sense to take out Force of Will and possibly Daze (most likely if you're on the draw). Maybe this sounds weird, but my take on it is that since they're the type of deck where no one card that they play is really essential to their game-plan (since the next card they play is probably also capable of doing damage), it doesn't make sense to sacrifice tempo or card advantage in order to counter one of their spells. Spell Pierce is fine on the other hand, but that's because it only sets you back the.
As far as Standstill, I would probably never run it games 2 and 3 unless I had at least Submerge as backup, and even then I feel like I'd want a little extra insurance against Apes and Nacatls and whatnot.
Does this analysis make sense to y'all?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I run 2 Kira in the main and 1 more in the side. From experience, if Kira lands, I usually beat Zoo.
I usually pull standstill and FOW. That gives me 7 slots to to board in deathmarks, jittes, and perish.Two more thoughts:
-It might be kind of fun to split BEB with Mind Harness, since it's pretty good against Zoo and Goblins also. Granted, it's a little worse against Grim Lavamancer (which I basically consider the bane of this deck's existence, lol). But it helps you race, whereas BEB doesn't. And these two match-ups put you in a situation where you pretty much have to race.
-I've always heard rumors of people doing well using Chalice of the Void against Zoo. Personally, I think it looks pretty good on paper, but I haven't tried it myself. It would also depend a lot on your meta, whether or not it would be a worthwhile inclusion.
EDIT: While we're discussing the Zoo match-up, I was wondering what people take out for games 2 and 3. I'm thinking it makes sense to take out Force of Will and possibly Daze (most likely if you're on the draw). Maybe this sounds weird, but my take on it is that since they're the type of deck where no one card that they play is really essential to their game-plan (since the next card they play is probably also capable of doing damage), it doesn't make sense to sacrifice tempo or card advantage in order to counter one of their spells. Spell Pierce is fine on the other hand, but that's because it only sets you back the
As far as Standstill, I would probably never run it games 2 and 3 unless I had at least Submerge as backup, and even then I feel like I'd want a little extra insurance against Apes and Nacatls and whatnot.
Does this analysis make sense to y'all?
would Ensnare be worth trying in mono blue, its almost a timewalk against zoo, and it is a timewalk against goblins
Waterfront bouncer is another anti aggro potential card sideboard.
Bouncer is way too slow. I've been tinkering with Snuff out in a U/B splash and have had mixed results.
Seriously, FFS, Bouncer and Ensnare are just not very good cards when you come right down to it. Ensnare basically timewalks you right along with the opponent, because you're setting yourself back by two land drops, and you basically have to use it after you attack. No bueno. Waterfront Bouncer is not quite as bad, IMO, but he's still pretty slow and the fact that he only bounces creatures is kind of unappealing. I mean, yeah, he turns every card in your hand into an Unsummon. But when was the last time when you were playing this deck and you were all like "God, you know what card would save my bacon right now? Frickin' Unsummon"??
And as far as Snuff Out, I might try Smother and/or Diabolic Edict instead. Not hitting black creatures can be awkward, and this isn't really a deck that wants to give up 4 life to kill a creature in our problematic match-ups (ie, Zoo will basically just laugh at you if you Snuff Out their creature). I think Smother or Edict would be a better fit. But if you really want point removal, white is the color to splash. Black gives awesome sweepers, white gives awesome point removal. Green gives you 'Goyf, but honestly, meh.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
hi ive been playing saitos md but i play mono u but im having a hard time balancing my sb here is my sb as of now
3 submerge
3 mind harness
2 tormods crypt
2 umezawas jitte
2 relic of progenitus
1 llawan cephalid empress
2 back to basics
thoughts?
Looks pretty decent. What match-ups have you been having problems with specifically, and what does your meta look like?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Waterfront Bouncer is anti show and tell tech, or rather anti Emrakul tech. Unsummon doesn't target this.
I was actually about to come in here raving about Flash Flood.
Then after like 3 re-reads, it hit me that it only bounces the mountain.
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT?
that's exactly why i play 2 in sb. Too strong. Is the better answer we can ghave to show and tell / sneak attack.
Why Bouncer over all the other options?
Seasinger or Dominating Licid are decent aside from being narrow; they also steal the creature and can change board positions. Although 3cc making fastest possible activation turn 4 or 5 via Vial and Singer requires them to have Islands while Licid is mana intensive.
Bouncer can come down turn 2 and leaves Vial intact set to 2 and always needs to discard.
Curfew or AEther Spellbomb are the speediest of the options and Curfew can get around a lone Prog/Inkwell/Emrakul.
Gilded Drake or Sower are one shot effects that are also playable. In a black splash Edict orShriekmaw/Bone Shredder and Big Game Hunter easier under Vial
The problem with Seasinger is that it is good against all the decks you should already be steamrolling. It was in all the early decks until we realized where it was incredible and where it was dead. If you are splashing black (or white), you really have plenty of options. But the Black options are either of the Saito kind or you have to ask why you are selecting that color for your splash.
Bryant, the Jitte is typically only decent against Zoo if they also have Jitte. It's bloody ridiculous, but so are all options against Zoo. it just so happens to be a more versatile Shatter than all others we have.
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I've had fair luck with Misdirection fighting Zoo. It's absolutely ridiculous how many times you can flip a bolt to a Nacatl/Lavamancer or, if you're lucky, a Path to a Goyf/Knight. It makes you feel like Nelson in the episode of The Simpsons where he's giving the spotted owl noogies and keeps saying "Stop endangering yourself! Stop endangering yourself!" Plus it skyrockets your chances of a Jitte connecting.
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