Rolled over is a little harsh. Preboard it is certainly not in my favor (60/40 maybe?), but post it is closer to 50% i feel. The nodes hope to push it up. As for paths, they are better against other decks in the field than firespout. If I aim to include firespout, the finks are to be removed, but that hurts my zoo/goblins matchup (albeit spout helps goblins). Swords+path+finks+nodes makes the matchup acceptable without being dead in other games. Hell, I'd side in finks against control just to have beater.Originally Posted by pippo84
As time goes on, firespout is probably the end I'm heading towards. But it won't be path that I take out for it.
Sorry, I didn't want to be rude or what. I just wrote it because you lost from Merfolk more than once.. FYI I played a match against a friend with Merfolk and lost it too..
I wanted to draw more cards because I had lots of answers, but could not find them..
Anyways thanks for the answer.
It's good to read that post board there are other players that board in creatures. From what I saw choices played are Kitchen Finks, Vendilion Clique, Baneslayer and Tarmogoyf.
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
No offense taken. I faced 3 of the 5 merfolk at the tourney, so go me. Ensnaring bridge is better against them than what I maindeck, and that should factor into hwat people run.
The creatures are cool post board. I just really like finks versitility in aggro matchups, though clique/goyf are better against control for sure.
Mmm.. 3 Merfolk out of 5? Unlucky!
I am testing Baneslayer post side and it's a real beating! Even though it's slow to cast when it lands it's usually GG because of the +10 race he gives. I also like Vendilion Clique because it sneaks problematic cards (Krosan Grip) from the opponent's hand. I never tested Kitchen Finks but I see they are really strong with the life gain ability + persist. I must say I don't like Tarmogoyf in here because it's the most played creature and an opponent can just leave another Goyf in defense and chump block it forever. I know we have removals though..
This said I also prefer flying creatures because of MD Moat.
I tried Vedalken Shacles for a while. They can be really good or so so. For this reason I'll try Ensnaring Bridge. It would have helped in many MU's I played.
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
Greetings People! I am new to this thread, I have developed interest in building this deck because it seems very fun to play and seems competitive. I just have a question. I play in a meta full of Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Rock variants, Survival variants, Loam, and Dredge. I don't really know if a counter-top shell would do well in my meta because of all the vials and pridemages running around. My question is will a generic Counter-top thopter shell that is tuned to do well against aggro enough for this meta, or would it be better to drop the Counter-top shell altogether?
Thanks for your inputs guys!
Why so serious?
Lately I have been thinking about the list to play..
FYI this was my last list:
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Topter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Vedalken Shackles
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
22 Lands.
Ok, the list seems quite standard.. Btw I really suggest adding a third Jace..
Looking at the GP Columbus top8 I noticed the CounterTop list that ran just 8 creatures and more control. I thought that the deck was getting towards this direction (by this I mean Thopter because of few creatures).
He played Firespout main, like Supreme Blue did. I like the idea, so why not cut the Toolbox for Firespout?
1 Pithing Needle, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Ensnaring Bridge for 3 Firespout. Thoughts? Seems an ok swap to me.
This leads to another point though...
The deck is really slow.. Lately I was thinking also to cut 2 cards (Pithing Needle and Ensnaring Bridge) to increase the combo parts in order to actually see them earlier (and thus going 3/2 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek split).
But what about firespout then?
This lead me to another thought. (NOT TESTED YET).
What if I try and cut the Enlightened Tutors and the Toolbox to have more combo pieces?
This is what came out:
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare (a third would be great!)
3 Firespout
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace 2.0
So, this list is much less flexible and suffers more from Extirpate, and less from Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip. You don't have the possibility to tutor up for an answer, but will be less likely to need it because you will see all your combo pieces earlier and will be able to re-build your combo if it gets destroyed. And games should be shorter.
Thought?
Is this idea completely mad?
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
I haven't done any tournament play on MTGO with the deck recently, but I agree with you. The deck can be very very slow at times. On MTGO, you only have 30 minutes of chess clock for up to 3 matches. Under those constraints, you want to go for thopter/sword quickly. I switched to 3 foundry / 1 sword, main deck firespouts, and I've been really really happy with it. Haven't gone to a third Jace, but as soon as I can afford another I will.
Good luck with your new build!
The lack of flexibility surely hurts certain matchups. Testing yo
I will test the list as soon as I can. Anyways at least I want to increase the number from a 2/1 to a 3/2 split.
What about running Firespout MD?
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
I have a very different take on Counter Top Thopter, and am not honestly sure if this is thread to post my version of the deck in. A majority of the lists I see posted take a more defensive approach to get thopter foundry online. I've taken my list to a local tournament only once and only made top 8 out of 32 players, but I am in the process of play testing the deck. I feel the deck is very refined in its approach, and few alterations should me made to the deck. The sideboard is currently a work in progress, but it is approaching completion. Below I will give the deck list, and then a list of card choices, and a general explanation. Once I get more testing in I will come back and edit it for match-up results.
U/B/W Counter Top Thopter
Creatures: 11
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Spellstutter Sprite
Spells: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifact//Enchantment: 14
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Thopter Foundry
3x Counterbalance
3x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands: 21
3x Mutavault
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Academy Ruins
Sideboard:
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle
Card Choices:
Creatures-
Dark Confidant: Primary draw engine for the deck. The curve is so low in this deck, that confidant will rarely burn you for more than 1 life. Three tops ensure that his damage remains minimal, and force doesn’t creep up on you. Brainstorm manipulates this stack as well.
Stoneforge Mystic: Serves dual purposes. To fetch the Sword of the Meek to get your thopter combo online, or provides a deadly piece of equipment to one of your flying tokens. The security of having a large piece of equipment uncounterable is very powerful against decks like Merfolk.
Spellstutter Sprite: Provides a good counter source for low cc spells, and can still be effective late game with numerous fairie tokens. Mutavaults also help power up the curve. As an added bonus Spellstutter Sprite can return Sword of the Meek to play.
A low, weak creature count does not hurt you, as all this cards are still very effective outside the damage they can deal. Almost all the damage that is dealt is done by your token generators.
Spells-
Force of Will: Duh, and yes there are 19 blue cards in this deck, including force, to ensure its usefulness.
Brainstorm: I run 7 fetch lands to ensure its success. Also, Brainstorm combos well with Bob.
Spell Snare: Helps fight opposing counterbalance decks, but could also be substituted with Spell Pierce.
Swords to Plowshares: We run white for Stoneforge, so we might as well add in one of the best creatures removal spells.
I run just the bare minimum of effective counters to take out cards that make the game near unwinable for us. While you will not be winning the counter war, you will still be able to shut down opponent’s bombs. Swords to Plowshares helps defend against early rushes from goblins, and can help shut off key utility creatures.
Artifact//Enchantment-
Sense's Divining Top: Obviously combos with Counterbalance, but also helps find solutions and fixes Bob's downside.
Thopter Foundry: Not only does this give you a non-fae flying tokens, to help prevent from being shut down by Engineered Plague, it combos with swords of the meek. The life gain provided also helps counter act losses from Bob and Bitterblossom.
Counterbalance: I only run three, because it's not absolutely essential 2nd turn play. Bob and Bitterblossom also set up around the same time, and you really don't want to see multiples. Nice to be able to pitch extras to FoW though.
Bitterblossom: This card wrecks so much face it's ridiculous. You need blockers *poof*, you need an army in the air *poof*. The major downside is this deck can typically only support one in play, but you almost always want see one with in the first few turns. Three feels safe.
Equipment: I'm going to just bundle all the best equipment playable in legacy in this group. Jitte, SoFI, & SotM are all amazing, and win you games. Jitte softens the life loss, and wreck winnie agro decks, SoFI kills merfolk and goblins, & SotM is your combo piece.
Land-
21x lands have been awesome, but some times you feel you want more just for the Thopter Foundry combo. Mutavault in play testing has not been amazing, but still performs a great role of boosting your fae count. Academy Ruins as a one of has provided some late game protection. The rest of the mana base seems pretty self-explanatory.
Sideboard-
Ensnaring Bridge: Amazing! You can almost always empty your hand when you need to by at least turn 3 or 4, and shut down opposing agro decks. You draw your card for the turn with an empty hand, swing with all your 1/1 flyers and then dump your one card, and say go.
Relic of Progenitus: I chose this over Tormond's Crypt due to it's 1cc in combination with Counterbalance. Plus, when you blow it you're card neutral.
Sword of Light and Shadow: Self explanatory, for when you need to change it out with SoFI.
Duress: Just an added bit of combo hate, but this slot is open for change.
Echoing Truth: To counteract opposing storm token generating decks and to bounce cards so you can swing in.
Pithing Needle: Absolutely needed. I'm thinking of changing the count to four. Engineered Explosives absolutely wrecks this deck. You have to shut it down at all costs. This also shuts down like cards, such as deeds, plane's walkers, and other dangerous cards.
-I will post match-ups as soon as I have more time to test the deck. If this deck needs to be moved by a moderator, please do so.
A friend of mine tested a similar list and wasn't satisfied with it.
I played against him in a tournament and smashed him 2-0 easily.
Other than that I have no experience with the deck you posted because it plays differently from the "standard" one.
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
By any chance, would a budget version of this deck be at least semi competitive? The only thing I cannot afford is FOW (costs $80 on MTGO). Could I just replace FOW with Spell Pierce or would that cripple the deck too much?
I don't think this deck will be competitive enough without FOW. The card is just to good to be left out. I too am building a budget version of this deck and at the very least i wont be using real duals, i'll be planning to use 3 shocklands since my list is very basic heavy. I won't be playing moat either, and i'm considering using only 1 Jace TMS. This is probably the most budgeted that I'd want to make the deck, the performance doesn't suffer as much, in testing at least. @__@
Why so serious?
Well, I can afford (or already have) most cards from this deck icnluding duals and fetches. But price for FOW online is ridiculous and I don't want to pay $320+ for a FOW playset (I might buy them as my Christmas present in December but not sooner :)) so I am looking for an alternative. FOW is ruining the CB converted mana cost configuration anyways (there aren't any spells you would want to counter with CB that have such converted mana cost).
True it is expensive but it's value in the deck is irreplaceable. It's not there for CB anyway, its there as a free counter to counter opponent's spells that could wreck you, like an opposing CB top set-up for example. It's also a free counter for protecting the combo or other bombs your deck could play. If you don't have access to fow, have you tried misdirection? Its as good as fow in protecting the combo from permission but not at stopping opposing bombs though.
Why so serious?
I am starting to build this deck for casual and semi-competitive play on a budget, i already have majority of the parts and begun testing various lists to see what would work best. my meta is very diverse, full of BANT variants, survival variants, zoo, merfolk, goblins, rock, dredge, thresh variants, faerie variants, and some combo. I've arrived at the list below.
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3/4 Counterspell
3/4 Swords to plowshares
2 Firespout
4 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3/4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
I am pretty much decided on how the rest of the deck looks except for the 60th card. I am testing what would be better 4th counterspell (it helps the curve for CB, its a hard counter which is good since i am very iffy on relying on counter-top too much), 4th swords to plowshares (i run 2 firespout main because of the number of zoo, merfolk, gobs, bant, rock, and other aggro/aggro-control. i feel that it should be 4 swords), or the 4th sensei's divining top (I understand and agree that for tops are mandatory for being to set-up the softlock early, but in testing I rarely notice the difference when it comes to the speed and frequency of being able to set up, although the redundancy of the card is very obvious). I just want to ask what you guys think about it. What card needs to be played as a set to be able help the deck most? And No, I don't plan on going down to 2 counterspell, the card is very strong especially as protection when casting counterbalance or top against blue decks. How bout playing with 61 cards, do you guys think is advisable? or it meddles with the numbers of the deck too much.
Thanks for the input guys!
Why so serious?
I've been playing the 3/2 split since day 1 and I tried cutting down to 2/1 but never liked it. The combo comes online too slow and the card disadvantage of having to tutor up both pieces is a pain. I highly recommend going up to 3/2. Your aggro mu also improves by having more combo pieces negating the need to play firespouts main. I posted my list a few pages back and the only change is probably -1 oring + 1 bridge. They are both 3cc for balance but bridge seems more bomby to me. bridge + moat also protects you from being blown out by a top deck pridemage/grip. Its nice as insurance and also as an easier to cast moat. And looking at the above list, please don't play tez, he's too slow, more jaces please. I also don't like the seat of the synod, I've never once tutored for it. Getting it wastelanded on the other hand, was all too common. And sacking it to thopter is pretty narrow at best. I also prefer bridge over shackles. Cheers!
More combo pieces makes the deck faster but it also makes it more clunky, it lowers the card quality of the cards you get to see off a top before and after a shuffle. The most I could do in this direction is +1 foundry but not another sword. I'll try to look into this although right now the spouts are doing fine.
Like I said, I'm building this deck casually and semi-competitively. That means I'm not spending to buy a moat. Humility works fine, and I prefer it over moat because of the high number of pridemages in my meta. Bridge doesn't work well with counters nor does it work well with humility. How was your experience with O ring? It has been playing great for me, takes out opposing explosives, pridemages, propagandas, opposing jaces and alot of other things. I'd want to play another main but space constraints keep me from doing so.
Again, there's a tez because I'm not spending on another jace. Tez is slow, yes, but it's a tutor, a counter target and a win con, I've won games because he was able to animate my needles, tops and explosives to swing for the win after being hit by sadistic sacrament. Seat of the synod is a variable slot, i use it as a means to takeback sword of the meek in the event that i'm put in a position that an opponent crypts the sword. I rarely see seat enough in my starting hands that I play it as one of my starting lands. Again bridge doesn't work well with humility, and I really like shackles, in an aggro meta like mine, a resolved shackles is a very very good position, plus, it's a win condition. I try to make the deck very flexible in terms of ways to win and ways that I could combat whatever it is my opponent could bring to the table.
I'll looking into your suggestions in my testing. Thanks for the inputs!
Why so serious?
No worries, if you're playing humility then I think you need to play the spouts. If you don't see alot of wastelands, I think 1 seat is fine. I still prefer another island instead though. Tez is a fine alternative to jace as a budget option. I agree that bridge and counters are not great. I think the most common problem with bridge is being stuck with a counter in hand and letting a noble heirarch or 1/1 poke you to death. You can brainstorm your counters back on top of your library and use top to keep the counterspells 'floating' on top of your library. That worked for me. If you manage to track down a moat, you might want to try it. O-ring was useful, it nuked jaces, opposing balances, bobs. It was never dead, its just not 'bomby'. With the 3/2 split, I don't have that much slots to play around with so it was a sad cut. Same goes for shackles. I haven't had many situations where I missed the versatility though. I much prefer consistency. Good luck with the deck!
I see alot of wastelands in my meta, it's just that I haven't had seat of the synod in my starting hand nor in my first few draws that I play it immediately only to be wasted, I only play it late when its a non-factor, or when I really need an artifact for a thopter or to bring sword back. I tried moat in testing, its a good card its just too expensive and there are just too many pridemages where I play. O-ring is not bomby but its arguably the deck's best "silver bullet" its nice to be able to have at least 1 answer for random crap your opponents may have.
On my question, from my list, what do you think the deck needs most? a 4th top, counterspell, or swords? or play the 4th of 2 cards and play 61 cards?
Why so serious?
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