I played the mirror match and had a significant edge there as Grim Lavamancer plays a bit like Visara there. He also helps you to trade Merfolks VS Goyfs and gives you quite some reach. Against Goblins / Zoo Kira + Lavamancer is pretty devastating.
My play experience there was that it is pretty hard to lose the mirror with this build which is pretty important at the moment. Lavamancer eats little guys and makes your guys stronger by threatening to kill bigger creatures when they block.
Bolt is there because it kills Wild Nacatl, Goblin Lackey and Grim Lavamancer which were the most problematic creatures to face when playing Merfolk. This Ur build has a better game against tribal decks which seem to be pretty wide spread at the moment. It definitely isn't tweaked in any way, I just wanted to point out that while splashing black or white gives you quite some options. The traditional red splash in fish decks for burn is also very viable here in my oppinion.
Seems like cursecatcher stops the combo cold there?Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Cursecatcher plays both the role of an ever increasing clock thanks to lords and plays very well with waste and daze. Outside vial hands, how often do you tap out during turns 1-3? I know I sure as hell do. You not tapping out gives the storm player time to find said protection, because you are not dealing as much damage as you would have if stifle was cursecatcher. You can generally expect catcher to get in there for 5 damage, which is huge IMO.
The drop in threat density from running 4 fewer folk i won't even go into... Run stifle and cursecatcher if you must, but leave the versitle catcher in
I addressed some points concerning Stifle in the report-thread. I'll repeat them here since apparently Stifle over Cursecatcher seems to be the most controversial thing about my list:
To add some more to the Stifle/Cursecatcher discussion:After drawing my first few hands with the deck, I was a bit worried about Stifle conflicting with stuff too (Stefan can attest to this), however, come actual tournament play and after getting a feel for how the different matchups should play out, it turned out to be a non-issue:
- On the first turn, Stifle only conflicts with AEther Vial in this list, thanks to the absence of Cursecatcher - and playing that AEther Vial on the second turn isn't that bad since you're planning on keeping it at two counters anyway.
- In many matchups, you want to keep one mana open anyway due to absolutely not being able to afford loosing some of your precious threats to Daze.
- You don't have to keep mana open only because you're holding a Stifle and might miss a fetchland when tapping out on the second turn: Stifle will always find a target - and sometimes that targets is even juicier than a fetchland to begin with (Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives or even a greedy Survival of the Fittest player come to mind).
Knowing when, with which hands and against which decks to go for the Stifle/Waste-Manadenial plan at all costs and against which decks/with which hands/when you can let slip a Stifle on fetchland is simply something you have to learn with this list - and once you've got a feel for that, Stifle won't really conflict with your board-development plans any more.- Furthermore, do keep in mind that Stifle will get you all that potential tempo loss back in no time (with interests) if it hits. I'll gladly say it once again and once more: Stifle/Wasteland is just that strong.
Looking back on the day, Stifle was a good choice: people didn't expect it and it always caused opponents to wince when it came - which is always a good sign.
This. Exactly this.
In my opinion Stifle+Wasteland is one of the strongest combination of cards available in Legacy right now - so you'd better have a pretty good reason for not including it, when primo it's in your colours and segundo it fits your gameplan very well too.
People in this thread seem to be pretty sure about Merfolk not being able to 'allow itself the tempo-disadvantage of Stifle' and that 'Cursecatcher is a relevant body'. From this I deduce that people are playing this deck as a Tribal/Aggro Deck with Islandwalk and Force of Will rather than as a blue Tempo deck with a good clock.
However, the former option, at least from what I know, is just playing too fair, especially when compared to the alternatives available in the Aggro- and Tribal-sector. Zoo is way faster and has actual removal. Elves have random 'I-Win' buttons and Forestwalk (which is better than Islandwalk). Goblins have massive card advantage and more tribal synergies.
When adopting the later philosophy, however, this changes. All of a sudden you stop being a bad Aggro deck and start being an interesting Tempo deck (trading some control elements for more aggressiveness). And you gain unfairness which is always a good thing in an unfair format.
Playing a card over some other card in Merfolk because that card is better in the Storm Combo matchup is not a very strong point in my book: Storm Combo is played diminishingly little, no matter where you live, and your matchup is already solid enough - no matter whether you play Cursecatcher or Stifle.
Why not go into this? I'm playing a pair of Kira, Great-Glass Spinner in addition to the 16 good Merfolk (Silvergill Adept, Lord of Atlantis, Coralhelm Commander, Merrow Reejerey).
This gives my list a total of 18 creatures which is only two less than conventional lists. Furthermore, Kira reduces the need for mass-creatures due to disabling most spotremoval. I also generally need less creatures to get in there for some damage due to having removal for blockers in Swords to Plowshares and due to more creatures with evasion (Kira has flying).
I don't see a drop in threat density there.
Especially not when considering that Cursecatcher is not a threat unless you have another threat (i.e. a Lord) to accompany him. Handle the other threat and Cursecatcher returns to non-relevancy - all while making you more prone to mass removal.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
This list is really interesting, and I've tested it with some games on MWS. Lavamancer is phenomenal, he can both increase the denial shooting to birds or hierarchs, increase the race in an impressive way by dealing 4-6 damage alone while the fishes take the rest, as do combat damage tricks. Main problem is, we don't have any way to get card advantage; neither card quality. You don't play Standstill; we could use Brainstorm as a junk filter, but I don't now if it's worth shaving all those 4x that could work as 3-ofs (1 Kira, 1 Bolt, 1 Daze, 21th Land) for them, since this deck seldom remains mana open in the first turns. Hell, surely it still would be a decent remedy to the horrible late-game draws it seems to have (vials and always those fucking force of will without pitch..and they're also carrying on a crusade to have it banned, lol.)
Personally I've found myself opening too many 2cc drops and plus only; I think it could be ok to play 2 cursecatchers, to increase the 1 drops, and to maximize a bit Reejerey's triggers with ease. Curving more regularly is good.
@ the sb: this deck suffers hard-control Landstill (the latest UBg particularly), if it does not hit a vial. Basically you're tapping yourself out to play a sorcery-speed threat, and they just destroy it with a single black in the form of innocent blood or ghastly demise. They also have Deed, and Loaming Wasteland which are dangerous to such a build with only 2-3 islands.
Wouldn't it be good to pack a 2 (3)of Blood Moon? It is gamebreaking against them, as well as the plethora of pseudo-tempo decks still alive. Also, it would be another bomb against Countertops, if the matchup isn't already interesting..
I see what the objetion could be, though: they expect you to Wasteland them, so they're fetching basics. While this is true, we should remember that them fetching basics is actually a real hurt for them, because they're having hard times casting both Goyfs and dazes and stp and such more than once a turn, as David Price pointed out in that famous reply on Birklyd's article. Moon is also a solid tech from Ur Dreadstill, which happens to run our same manabase roughly, so I think it's doable. Thoughts?
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I started out with UG merfolk, running the standard 16 with 4 goyf. I absolutely hated the random "I cannot play silvergill in an otherwise awesome hand thanks to only having 16 merfolk in the list" so that is where a lot of my hesitation comes from. I love stifle, but in my eyes catcher makes the cut before it in this deck. I do however agree this is a tempo based deck that occasionally gets by on tribal isynergies.
My main argument was intended for the storm matchup, where even that little bit of damage sure feels like a nice cushion. And regardless of the opponent, I love top decking catcher with a rejerrey on the field, if not two. I just have good asscociations with t1 vial/catcher as opposed to t1 sit-and-wait. If you are telling me the introduction of Coralhelm has indeed made the sit and wait plan better than I remember, I'll go test it.
Hello, I am new to the forums and I am looking for a little bit of help. I have played Merfolk since my somewhat recent debut to Legacy and a few days ago I played against dredge for the first time. Man that deck sure is "diffrent" to play against. Anyway I lost horribly and I was wondering if anyone could perhaps give me some tips and tricks against that matchup? I sideboarded 3 Relics and 1 Crypt.
Cursecatcher is invaluable in this matchup. Sacrifice him to counter dread returns or cabal therapies if there are Bridge from Belows in the graveyard. Also use your counters on either discard outlets(Putrid Imp) early ( turns 1 or 2) or draw spells when they play them. Do not play standstill unless you're very far ahead. They don't need to cast many spells, and can often make you crack it even if they have no board presence when you cast it and you have 2 or 3 fish.
Last edited by Draener; 08-25-2010 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Wrong spelling of you're
Esqulax, proxy up a typical dredge deck. Goldfish it (play it against nobody at all) until you have the basic function of the deck understood. If you think it is different to play against it, try playing with it! Once you have that down, you want to play it against your Merfolk deck a few times. Then explore some of the defense cards Merfolk has available to hate it out and figure out how to best use them. Just the same, let me give you a brief rundown of popular hate cards and their uses.
Cursecatcher: Sacrifice him to remove all copies of Bridge from Below from your opponent's graveyard. You will need to actually counter something, so it may actually be one of your own spells you counter. But it will be worth it.
Tormod's Crypt - This is your basic hate card for graveyards. You probably want a few of these. Dredge will very likely have a way of dealing with it like Pithing Needle so you want at minimum one other hate card.
Relic of Progenitus is my personal choice not because it is perfect against this opponent, but because it is very powerful against a variety of opponents. It is even good against Tarmogoyfs (though not great).
Faerie Macabre - Even if you have no black mana, this could be the best weapon against the crazy turn 1 wins dredge is occasionally capable of. You never need to cast this spell anyway.
Don't be afraid to counter spells, especially on turn 1. Much of what that deck does is not actually casting spells, so counter what you can.
Hope this helps.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Since when Storm combo is a good MU?
If you're playing Catcher, Daze, Pierce and Force it's bad, I don't see the MU becoming good by cutting the Catcher...
Not to mention, Catcher is good against most decks in the meta, where Stifle is good just against a few and if you're not up against those decks, it become a useless card after turn 3-4 when they have their mana.
That's the reason you don't see Stifle anymore in most lists, because it's a dead draw in a deck that can't afford that many and doesn't have a fast enough race to take advantage of the wee bit of tempo you gain from a Stifle in the first few turns.
That, and the fact that Spell Pierce does the same job as 2 Stifles on fetches by cutting their mana supplies by 2 instead of 1.
Once upon a time, when Counterspell and Ancestral Recall were still living in the Garden, they ate the fruit from the Tree of Making Noobs Cry.
And it tasted good.
But now all blue cards must suffer for their sin.
There are three types of disruption for combo decks. They are:
1. Permanent-based disruption. Counterbalance. Gaddock Teeg. Sphere of Resistance. Cursecatcher.
2. Reactive disruption. Overwhelmingly this comes in the form of counterspells, but occasionally something like removal can act as reactive disruption.
3. Proactive disruption. This is hand disruption (Duress, discard effects) and resource denial (Wasteland, Sinkhole).
This separation is based on what the combo player has to do to fight them. Duress is pretty ineffective at solving #1 or #3, but is very good at taking care of #2. They use bounce for #1, but it does nothing against anything else. Orim's Chant stops #2, but does nothing to #1 or #3.
Modern storm combo decks in Legacy that aren't Belcher can easily play through decks packing one of these types of hate, assuming they aren't packing a ridiculous amount of it (like a deck with 20 counters or something--these decks dont' exist). Without Cursecatchers, you only have reactive disruption, as the opposing player should be fetching basics anyway. Your basic strategy here is to just hope that you can get there, and you're heavily unfavored.
However, once you have Cursecatchers in the mix, not only do you have more disruption in general, you also have varied types of disruption. They can't just Duress away all your interactivity because some of your interactivity is on the board.
This idea is the reason why CounterTop decks are so good against storm combo. Not only do they have reactive disruption in Force of Will, but they also have _extremely_ effective permanant-based disruption in Counterbalance.
The thrust of all this is that, barring considerations for other decks, the best possible sideboard card for storm in Merfolk is either Duress or Thoughtseize, because then you are packing all three types of disruption--you're coming at them from all angles. There's no way they can sideboard against all of these, because then their deck becomes far too diluted.
With a deck packing Manadenial (Wasteland on Lands + Stifle on Chrome Mox or Fetchlands), Free Counters (Force of Will, Daze) and a Clock I'm not afraid to face that one Combo player you'll not be facing with any regularity anyway. And I don't see how anyone else should either.
This is a valid point and the situation did come up a few times, however, it never was dramatic.
I'm also inclined to turn this into a point against Silvergill Adept rather than for Cursecatcher. Especially since some number of Silvergill Adepts are to me the next weakest slots in the list (and I already considered cutting one of the Silvergill Adepts for the third Kira, Great-Glass Spinner).
How is Cursecatcher a better topdeck "after turn 3-4 when they have their mana" than Stifle is?
I'd say he's about as useless as Stifle, if not more so: a 1/1 body isn't really relevant at that point of the game whereas Stifle can always randomly hit stuff like Pernicious Deed, Survival of the Fittest, Umezawa's Jitte, Goblin Matron, Wasteland on your Mutavault or a Fetchland activation after Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top (which is still good even if your opponent already has a lot of mana).
That, and the little fact that Stifle actually helps hindering aforementioned 'your opponent gets to have mana and do stuff' part a lot.
I furthermore fail to see how "Catcher is good against most decks in the meta".
What does he do against Zoo except chump-block? What does he do against the slower decks except force them to leave that mana open they're leaving open anyway due to playing around Daze?
I concede that sometimes Stifle is a bad topdeck; Cursecatcher also being a bad topdeck doesn't change that. However, the potential Stifle/Wasteland offers is, in my opinion, well worth the occasional let-down and will make you win more games than you loose due to having a bad topdeck.
With that being said in addition to what I said earlier on the issue, I could care less if people continue playing Cursecatcher in Merfolk. I've made my points, now it's up to each one of you to decide whether they make any at all. All I know is that a lot of people played Merfolk on the day, that the one list that top8ed didn't play Cursecatcher, and that I never wished Stifle were anything else all day long.
Spell Pierce on a spell denies them that one spell. Which is very good and I do love my Spell Pierces in the Sideboard.
Stifle on Fetchland, however, denies them all those spells that all of a sudden can't be cast due to not having so many lands in play. Which, although it might not work all of the time, is even better.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
i might be crazy but why not play Sygg, River Cutthroa or Cold-Eye Selkie if you are worried about The silvergail Adept not being able to drop. Sure they both do not imediately replace themselves but they both are easier to drop and have a higher chance for card advantage.
Sygg also has a pretty big body for a folk (1/3) which usually allows you to chump goyf pretty easily early on.
first of all, sygg river cutthroat and cold eyed selkie are subpar ways to make card advantage. Though probably i'd play cutthroat in a UR list because of the lightning bolts, i mean, with cutthroat in play, your bolts become: eot, tap R: deals 3 dmg to any target, cantrips. Sounds good to me.
Cold eyed selkie is subpar because, as stated hundreds of times in hundreds of threads regarding merfolk, it is good in those Mu where the merfolk player is >50% preside yet.
As for the Ur list, Lavamancer and bolts could really be the answers to the pain in the ass wich is represented by piledriver. Also they're good at removing alternative mana sources, like Bops and hierarchs, ideally completing the role played by stifle (for those who play it, no offense) and waste.
One last thing, Cursecatcher is always a better topdeck than stifle, unless you're playing with someone who has 4 pernicious deed maindeck.
For those who says that catcher is a 1/1 body and it's useless, i suggest quitting kiras and start playing some serious lord-heavy list, i.e. -3 kira + 3 sovereign. Merfolk Sovereign is very underrated. I mean, i play it as a 2 of, so i'm able to have 4 loa, 4 reejerey, 4 coralhelm and 2 sovereign. That's 14 lords, wich means freaking huge fishes. If you want to play legendary 2/2 for cmc 3...choice is yours.
Saito's list plays only the 20 ''necessary'' 'folks. And i think that everybody agree on that cut.If you want to add some, add more raw power by adding sovereign.
Also, kira is the most horrible topdeck you can have between 1st-4th turn. I'd rather topdeck a land to have coralhelm ramp to 4th level in one turn when opponents is tapped out. really.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
I have been running Uw Merfolk for a while and before I was running 4 STPs in the main and 4 PtE + 4 REB in the SB against Zoo. Kinda overkill sometimes and not too effective. In order to beat Zoo, the key card is Kira. If Kira lands, it's usually going to be a lot smoother from then on. Right now, I have 4 STPs + 2 Kiras in the main, 3 PtE + 3 REB + 1 Kira in the side.
@ Sejiri Merfolk
I was planning on trying him out as a 3 of in the main to try and increase my threat density but not too sure what to cut. At this rate, I might cut Standstills and put in the Sejiri instead. It's going to look more like the 16 Lord build, but instead of Sovereign, I'll have Sejiris and STPs.
Lets be honest here. Kira against zoo is good if she sticks, but how will she stick when the zoo player has creatures that are all bigger than yours that they constantly apply pressure with? The zoo MU is abyssmal for merfolk for a reason and kira doesn't help that much sure it turns off path to exile but they don't necessarily need to play around your little fish when their whole deck is chock full of creatures that have a power of 2 or greater.
I'm a fan of stifle in here. It makes you more tempo oriented and you'll occasionally get the awkward hand with stifle and vial in it but stifle on the storm players' fetchlands is brutal for them since they only run about 13 lands. And against zoo packing steppe lynx as a 4 of it works quite well against the lynx since they don't bash your face for 4 points of damage when combined with a fetchland rather its just a kird ape which is a lot more underwhelming and you deny them mana which is always good against decks with a low land count.
Against dredge, cursecatcher is the MVP. You can counter their dread return with a cursecatcher AND remove at least 2 bridges most of the time. They hate cursecatcher just as much as they hate mogg fanatic.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
Lets be honest here. Kira against zoo is good if she sticks, but how will she stick when the zoo player has creatures that are all bigger than yours that they constantly apply pressure with? The zoo MU is abyssmal for merfolk for a reason and kira doesn't help that much sure it turns off path to exile but they don't necessarily need to play around your little fish when their whole deck is chock full of creatures that have a power of 2 or greater.
I'm a fan of stifle in here. It makes you more tempo oriented and you'll occasionally get the awkward hand with stifle and vial in it but stifle on the storm players' fetchlands is brutal for them since they only run about 13 lands. And against zoo packing steppe lynx as a 4 of it works quite well against the lynx since they don't bash your face for 4 points of damage when combined with a fetchland rather its just a kird ape which is a lot more underwhelming and you deny them mana which is always good against decks with a low land count.
Against dredge, cursecatcher is the MVP. You can counter their dread return with a cursecatcher AND remove at least 2 bridges most of the time. They hate cursecatcher just as much as they hate mogg fanatic.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
I calculated this likelyhood as 0.24... with the following: [(4/60)+(4/59)+(4/58)+(4/57)+(4/56)+(4/55)+(4/54)]^2. Is this correct? It seems like a far too often occurance. You'd need a plan here for such an occasion. Perhaps hold back the Aether Vial to Stifle and drop it second turn? Seems too slow against the Zoo match up. I suppose it'd be entirely dependent on whether we play or draw.
I've been resistant to running Kira, Great Glass-Spinner for a number of reasons. Namely casting cost, not a lord, and not a 'folk. As DarkRitual was alluding to, she doesn't swing the match in our favor enough to offset those compromises. On the Sejiri point, I'm going to be testing him in a build running Cosi's Trickster and Path to Exile. My hope is that this build will be both aggressive and defensive enough to compete with Zoo, if not game 1 than post board. I'm sure this will be met with sceptism, but I'll be posting a list and playtest results in the near future.
Draw, play Island, GG?
Arthur: What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: I... am an enchanter.
Arthur: By what name are you known?
Tim: There are some who call me... 'Tim'...?
Arthur: ...greetings, Tim the Enchanter.
Cosi sucks. really. Dude, I dont know how you did your tests, but Kira is a MVP.
I used to run Kira and she was good when there was a lot of removal floating around, but now there is mostly combo, so I'm dropping her from my list. I'm thinking of Echoing Truth and Spell Pierce.
Cosi's Trickster really sucks actually. She doesn't get very big until it is too late.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote