Brainstorm
Counterbalance
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Show and Tell
Survival of the Fittest
Tarmogoyf
Tendrils of Agony
Wasteland
I had to quote this because I feel like this point cannot be driven home hard enough.Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Brainstorm was restricted in Vintage to encourage variation in archetypes, NOT because of power level.
Congratulations, you quoted someone who did nothing but echo the sentiments of someone else...allow me to walk you through some analysis.
Statement: Brainstorm is banned.
Q1: Why is brainstorm banned?
A1: It was restricting the number of archetypes in vintage. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...tg/daily/ld/96
Q2: Why was it restricting the number of archetypes in vintage?
A2: After lands, ponder, brainstorm, force of will, and the restricted cards there were few spots left in the decklists. (in same paragraph)
Q3: Ah I see...but there are so many strong cards in vintage, and decks can win or lock so quickly...are the cantrips that are clogging up those decklists really better than just running other powerful vintage spells?
A3: There is strong correlation between the power of cantrips and the difference in power of the cards in your deck. Case in point; ancestral recall. When you have game breaking spells in your deck it's important to find them as often as possible. There are are other factors such as: brainstorm is much more than a cantrip, cantrips enable the conerstone of vintage (force of will), and they provide consistencency which is a form of power in magic.
Q4: Ok, I can see how playing cards that maximize your chances of pulling off your strongest plays is important in vintage, but how strong is card selection in legacy?
A4: Very strong, over half (I think this was IBA's stat...don't remember exactly) of legacy decks run force of will and there are decks like TES that splash blue just for brainstorm/ponder. Tarmogoyf is clearly the best creature in the format, lion's eye diamond the best accelerant, jac...err survival of the fittest the best engine, and force of will the best answer...I want to play these cards not impostors. Counterbalance+top and show and tell+threat are very powerful two card combo's that only cost 3 mana...but these combos require consistency support by brainstorm to remain egregious offenders.
I'll disagree with you, there are tons of really important interactions in Legacy that are based on the fact that duals have two basic land types:
Choke tapping duals;
fish swimming through duals;
Nacatl, Ape and Lion getting bonus from duals;
Reliquary saccing duals;
Flagstones fetching Duals;
Fireblast, Submerge, Reverent Silence and Snuff Out being played through duals;
Utopia Sprawl being played on duals;
REB and BEB destroying duals;
Land Grant searching for duals;
Shackles getting bonus from duals;
Daze bouncing duals...
...are all interactions that make a huge difference in Legacy. They are so part of the format that we barely think about it when we read a basic land type requirement on a card. That's why duals are so powerful, not only because they can be fetched by fetches.
I'll have also to agree with you, because being fetched is a HUGE part of it.
"Want all, lose all."
The question now is: How would the format look like if Original Duals did not exist.
Would decks get the same consistency with Ravnica Duals? Would there be less 3+ color decks?
Obviously, Brainstorm, SDT, and the rest of the cantrip/filter gang will be a big help in color fixing if that scenario ever happens.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Am I missing something?
nah....
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
That REB destroying duals argument makes no sense. With Painter's servant in play those cards can destroy anything. The fact that duals have a basic type doesn't change one iota about this.
Active Volcano bouncing duals is a better example, but totally irrelevant.
Guess we're getting to keep wasteland abit more around :p
Simply love this card <3
Guess we're getting to keep wasteland abit more around :p
what is that? new judge promo?
Guess we're getting to keep wasteland abit more around :p
Yes it is.
It doesn't look that hot, but more wastelands on the market is a good thing.
I'm sorry, were you trying to make some kind of point?
Obvious mistake from my part. Everything else still stands.
Everytime I fetch a dual and follow to play Thoughseize, I thank the gods at WotC my Bayou is not an Overgrown Tomb. By this example I believe we can say that many decks would not have the same consistency they have now.
Brainstorm, SDT and company already play a big role on color fixing, even with old duals.
"Want all, lose all."
the optimistic guy in me says tarmogoyf, the practical one says top. Wild nacatl being banned would make the format far healthier, too.
CB-Top is around for ages and hasn't ever been too powerful for legacy. It's just a well known archetype, but neither Counterbalance or SDT is ban worthy.
SDT sucks in lots of decks, but shines in CB decks. Brainstorm is just blue's best cantrip; I cannot imagine the format without it. I'd stop playing Legacy without Brainstorm or SDT. There's too much skill coming into play with those cards to be worth a ban.
SDT sucks up game time monotonously and gives too much draw control for an exceptionally cheap card. You can't even get rid of it unless you blow a K-grip on it, lolz
When is the next announcement? September 20th ish?
Voted Show and Tell.
That card became way to absurd with Emrakul. It's just not a fun card, at all.
CB/top won't be banned. Merfolk, Goblins keep those decks pretty far away from the high tables.
Nacatl and Tarmogoyf wont be banned, because they keep merfolk and Goblins from the high tables.
Lion's Eye diamond won't be banned because they keep Non-blue based decks away from the high tables.
Yet, CB/top + Merfolk try to keep, and will succed 50% of the times or even more depending on the players, combo away from the high tables.
This format is healthy.
"Brainstorm on the banlist". Don't make me laugh. Although that card is really really broken, if you ban that card noone will play blue anymore. Atleast I won't for sure.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
I have voted Show and Tell but if they're still letting Natural Order see play, I doubt that theyre going to ban Show and Tell.
And Wild Nacatl on the ban list? Come on... Kird Ape used to be and the Extended ban list and it got reintroduced. Zoo isn't that powerful. Yes, it sucks to get beaten really fast by aggro but if that is the case, shouldn't we all ban Storm enabling cards since the decks that use those cards can kill you way faster than a zoo then can kill you?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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