All B/R update speculation.

[Bryant Cook]

I didn't realize it was from forever ago. Sorry. But still. I feel like there's more people who want no changes than people who do.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Mana Vault is wayyy to broken. Rit-> Vault-> AdN

Sick.

[menace13]

You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.

They are not the same type of decks. Saying dying to removal or gy hate does not make it a bad deck. Most decks play 4 removal spells some do not play any at all. Discard can remove the answers allowing you to counter others, is a solid plan. The deck has a number of ways to be disrupted, Zoo can be hard due to infi removal, but it isnt unwinnable. Needle,Claim,E Truth all answer gy hate. Just because SnT-->Emrakul is a powerful combo, does not lessen how good a Lone,Single Hermit Druid can be; There is no more set up after Hermit taps, no cards needed.
I am not saying "it is the best deck evar omguhasnoclu". The deck is not bad just because there are ways to stop it. It is a good deck and not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

@Mikey- Anger is a good idea haven't tested that could also somehow set up Anger in yard to play around spot removal with Hermit-Maybe SurvivalDruid with Vines, sounds good ?-, used Dragon's Breath and Lord of Extinction to feed Ghoul in current list.

Either way, I would like to see more cards unbanned Hermit or otherwise.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You're basically borrowing half of vengevine and the win half of dredge (i.e. the stuff that doesn't dredge since you have druid to do it in one shot). LED works well in this deck since you can use it to power SotF --> lethal vengevine or Hermit Druid --> Bridge zombies. You've got Mongrel/LED to get rid of Bridges from hand. I don't think it would be format breaking, but I think it would be VERY solidly tier 1. Without an active Crypt/Relic/Extirpate/Stifle (with a removal spell for Druid before next turn), your opponent has no chance to do anything before you make 16 2/2's or multiple 4/3's.

[Nidd]

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

Seconded. The format looks quite healthy.

[Amon Amarth]

They are not the same type of decks. Saying dying to removal or gy hate does not make it a bad deck. Most decks play 4 removal spells some do not play any at all. Discard can remove the answers allowing you to counter others, is a solid plan. The deck has a number of ways to be disrupted, Zoo can be hard due to infi removal, but it isnt unwinnable. Needle,Claim,E Truth all answer gy hate. Just because SnT-->Emrakul is a powerful combo, does not lessen how good a Lone,Single Hermit Druid can be; There is no more set up after Hermit taps, no cards needed.
I am not saying "it is the best deck evar omguhasnoclu". The deck is not bad just because there are ways to stop it. It is a good deck and not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

@Mikey- Anger is a good idea haven't tested that could also somehow set up Anger in yard to play around spot removal with Hermit-Maybe SurvivalDruid with Vines, sounds good ?-, used Dragon's Breath and Lord of Extinction to feed Ghoul in current list.

Either way, I would like to see more cards unbanned Hermit or otherwise.

Ah, sorry just a bit too much hyperbole on my part. I was basically trying to get across that there are other decks and cards unabnned right now that are just as broken as Druid and probably more resilient too. Thus it's a safe unban. Although you are correct that its pretty much the easiest set up ever.

[DrJones]

Ah, sorry just a bit too much hyperbole on my part. I was basically trying to get across that there are other decks and cards unabnned right now that are just as broken as Druid and probably more resilient too. Thus it's a safe unban. Although you are correct that its pretty much the easiest set up ever.

No, it's the other way around, it's likely the other cards will get banned because they are crazier than druid.

[sdematt]

Honestly, Legacy is fun right now. We have a bunch of TES and SI running around, and it's great. I actually like playing against this type of combo. Who doesn't love some shelldocking an Emrakul?

I believe the format is in a place where we have decks that are Top Tier and good, but not overwhelmingly good. Merfolk, Zoo, etc. can all be beaten, but are all good decks. We also have a bunch of Tier 1.5 decks that can stand up, and do quite well in their own accord. Nothing is really dominating the meta, although some decks are more popular than others.

I'll be honest, Mystical Tutor did take away some strategies, and the format probably would have survived had it not been banned, but the way it is now, I like it very much. It's a tad slower, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

-Matt

[dahcmai]

I would kind of like to have Shaharzad back. Be fun to cast that on some of these new combo decks. Not to mention, I bet half the people have forgotten about the whole "remove from game" thing with that card and would actually try and play me out in a game.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No, it's the other way around, it's likely the other cards will get banned because they are crazier than druid.

No, nothing will be banned anytime soon because nothing is overly dominating.


For all the other people Druid is really good. The thing about Druid is, as soon as he activates the game is over and you win. That means all you really need is a way to get Druid into hand and a way to protect him until he activates. I messed around with a Druid deck briefly right before the B&R list split and it was really strong. Between Wordly Tutor, Druid, and all the cheap discard available (including Unmask) it's very easy to play 2 discard spells and then a second turn Druid and then they have one turn to answer before you win.

Basically Druid is a 1G creature whose ability is to activate to win the game. It's a one card win-con in any deck it's ever going to be in. Show and Tell Emrakul is not really comparable since you need a companion spell and they get to put a possible answer into play for free. Druid is just play any discard you can, strip their hand, play Druid, win. I'd hate to see what people could do with that card now-adays.

[sdematt]

I'd love to have Shaharzad back. Twincast + Mirari + Shaharzad + the enchantment that forces the game to draw in 2 turns. Good times.

-Matt

[dahcmai]

I just liked Tormod's crypting, Extirpating, Swordsing, and Samurai of the Pale Curtaining people in the subgame and then watching them cringe as the judge said, "No they don't come back, they stay removed back in the normal game". Muahahaahah! It's WW, player loses half their life next time around.

[perm]

flame me all you want, but the cold hard fact is that the format would be far healthier, more interesting and more varied without Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is the epitome of a format warping card.

Also, why are land tax and earthcraft still banned? And I think gush and frantic search would be interesting.

[jrsthethird]

I just liked Tormod's crypting, Extirpating, Swordsing, and Samurai of the Pale Curtaining people in the subgame and then watching them cringe as the judge said, "No they don't come back, they stay removed back in the normal game". Muahahaahah! It's WW, player loses half their life next time around.

Does this still work now that there exists a zone in the game for those cards? Similar to how you can't Wish for exiled cards.

[perm]

Does this still work now that there exists a zone in the game for those cards? Similar to how you can't Wish for exiled cards.

nope, when the game ends, all cards from all of that subgame's zones are shuffled in, including exile

[majikal]

You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.

The list I was working on the last time Hermit Druid was mentioned used Entomb -> Anger before it went off. The opponent does not have a chance to respond to an activation. Now with M11, you can side into Leyline of Sanctity to avoid all grave-hate but Faerie Macabre. After testing it online for a week or so I was sporting a pretty frightening 2nd-turn kill percentage of about 75%. All you really need in hand to go off is entomb (or LED if Anger is in hand), a way to get hermit druid, and enough mana to cast and activate it. Between Lotus Petal, 8 Spirit Guides, optional LED, and 8-12 slots dedicated to Hermit Druid (Druid itself, Summoner's Pact, optional Worldly Tutor - and Pact can grab mana too) it's pretty easy to do.

As for kills, you can use either the Bridge from Below plan, Sutured Ghoul + Lord of Extinction, or Reveillark -> flashback Cabal Therapy into Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite. Or any combination of those, I guess. It's a pretty flexible deck really.

Here's a sample list:

4 Hermit Druid
4 Summoner's Pact
0-4 Worldly Tutor
4 Entomb

3-4 Narcomoeba
1-2 Dread Return
1 Reveillark
1 Pestermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Anger

4 Cabal Therapy
2-4 Thoughtseize
4 Pact of Negation

4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
0-4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Taiga

This is just a barebones list. You can actually forego some pieces like LED or Worldly Tutor in favor of more resiliency like a Bridge From Below, Sutured Ghoul + Lord of Extinction, and one of the Lorwyn Incarnations so you can still win if Anger gets removed somehow.

[dahcmai]

nope, when the game ends, all cards from all of that subgame's zones are shuffled in, including exile

Bah, you are right. They updated it to include that. Sad Face. I hadn't noticed since it got banned.

[Vacrix]

So Gush and Frantic search were just unbanned in Vintage. What does that mean for Legacy, if anything? I think that WotC might be testing the waters with Frantic Search to see if its safe to unban in Legacy. Thoughts? As a Solidarity player, I really want Frantic Search to be unbanned.

[(nameless one)]

So Gush and Frantic search were just unbanned in Vintage. What does that mean for Legacy, if anything? I think that WotC might be testing the waters with Frantic Search to see if its safe to unban in Legacy. Thoughts? As a Solidarity player, I really want Frantic Search to be unbanned.

Its funny because both cards were never banned in Vintage. Its actually mind-boggling if they actually meant it for Legacy. I mean they could have said: "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted" since they were restricted in Vintage.

Plus the fact that Gush as always been restricted in the format. It has been unrestricted only to be restricted again few months after its unrestriction. We'll see how this goes.

[Jander78]

Its funny because both cards were never banned in Vintage. Its actually mind-boggling if they actually meant it for Legacy. I mean they could have said: "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted" since they were restricted in Vintage.

Plus the fact that Gush as always been restricted in the format. It has been unrestricted only to be restricted again few months after its unrestriction. We'll see how this goes.

I'd be inclined to think they meant to say "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted", since they're both a bit too powerful in Legacy.