[Deck] Berserk Stompy

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I don't agree that rancor is the weakest pump: Rancor is an awesome pump for our second plan: aggro (a.k.a. the reason to play berserk stompy instead of a regular combo deck like ANT/TES). With rancor, we stack some early damage so that the final blow demands us less cards, and it's final damage end up to be as deadly as the other pumps.

That turns me more to the red berserk side, since with the black one, we would be giving up to be giving up aggro, which is so good against controls decks running blue, like threshold. Red zerk is better at stacking damage, and then final blow, which is our common strategy...

QFT

@Tru3: Red also gives you Goblin Guide who is absolutely insane here. The Red Berserk would definitely be a 4 of in such a splash, as would Goblin Guide, and those cards alone merit trying out the red splash.

[Tru3z3rox]

I think I prefer the white splash actually. It gives us:

Pridemage + Exalted
Double Cleave (Instant as opposed to a Sorcery)
Color fixing and stacked exalted with Noble Hierarch

[Gui]

I think I prefer the white splash actually. It gives us:

Pridemage + Exalted
Double Cleave (Instant as opposed to a Sorcery)
Color fixing and stacked exalted with Noble Hierarch

Double Cleave is worse than the options, even being an instant, since you rarely demand berserk to be an instant and 1cc is way better than 2cc to combo, but pridemage/noble part is true. Also, the GRW list can use Assault Strobe instead of Fling now.


What bothers me is that neither Double Strike nor Infect will stack if you use the same card twice, so, running 4x might result into a situation where you could combo, but will have to do it twice. That will require some test.


Now, another card that caught my attention is Infiltration Lens. I know, it reads as "Target creature is unblockable unless you are really dying" :P
It doesn't put us one step ahead for the kill, but will enable early creatures w/o evasion to hit, as Nettles or early Skarrgs... and if they let us draw 2 cards, even better.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

What bothers me is that neither Double Strike nor Infect will stack if you use the same card twice, so, running 4x might result into a situation where you could combo, but will have to do it twice. That will require some test.

True, but also they don't kill the creature like Berserk does, so they offsets the drawback in a way.

[HAL]

This might have been discussed already, but isn't Nature's Claim awesome in the SB? Although I think it might be better in the builds that run closer to 14-15 lands rather than 17-18. When you have more lands K-grip is better 100% of the time, but if you rarely hit that 3rd land drop natures claim seems to be superb in conjunction with kavu predator.

[Gui]

This might have been discussed already, but isn't Nature's Claim awesome in the SB? Although I think it might be better in the builds that run closer to 14-15 lands rather than 17-18. When you have more lands K-grip is better 100% of the time, but if you rarely hit that 3rd land drop natures claim seems to be superb in conjunction with kavu predator.

Our main target for Artifact/Echantment removals are Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, which are far more played than any other artifact/enchantment. Against either, Nature's claim is worse than gleeful sabotage or than krosan grip, or even seal of primordium. Nature's Claim can only deal with either chalice or cb IF you got vexing shusher, which would already put you in advantage against these anyways...

[NihilObstat]

QFT
@Tru3: Red also gives you Goblin Guide who is absolutely insane here. The Red Berserk would definitely be a 4 of in such a splash, as would Goblin Guide, and those cards alone merit trying out the red splash.

I must say that mono-green tends to be a little too slow for beating real combo, and even though the black options you've said would make us a lot more comboish, red also represents an increase of Speed and constancy.
Goblin Guide is a crazy ********, I've played him in boros, seen him in monoR, some goblins, an he's superb.
Also, as someone said, what does the fact that Assault Strobe is sorcery actually matter, I mean, seriously, how often do we attack with 2-3 creatures, and the opponent has 2 creatures to block, and therefore we pump the free one........ It just doesn't happen. When we pump, we pump, and if he has removal he'll spend it after the instant as he would after the sorcery.

I will give G-R a try. Maybe add a couple lands, and probably some other 2cc crits. I would only play 2 or maximum 3 of the new Zerk. Not for the stacking problem, but because if we have 8 Berserk, how are we supposed to pump the creatures? ^^ There's no room for everything. I also see Seal of Strength gaining importance with 6-7 zerks, better than VoV, although we would lose our precious trollshroud...

I have to add that I see black as a really good colour for the deck: Dark Confidant would be our MVP, then the new Zerk, and a possible 1x Flying infect.

I don't know if you guys know about it, but there's a fun spanish Black-Green version of Berserk that goes like this:
4x False Cure 4x Kavu Predator
4x Invigorate 4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Reverent Silence 4x Summoner's Pact
4x ESG 4x L.Petal.
It's a lot more combo, and hilarious. Not good though ^^ But you should try it for casual.




One last thing, all of us should keep in mind:
We all complain about losing stability in a 3 color build, but if we go to deckcheck, all I see are Etienne's lists, with 3 colors. Are we maybe too obsessed, should be give 3 colors a try? I don't have duals, but maybe you guys do ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

I must say that mono-green tends to be a little too slow for beating real combo, and even though the black options you've said would make us a lot more comboish, red also represents an increase of Speed and constancy.
Goblin Guide is a crazy ********, I've played him in boros, seen him in monoR, some goblins, an he's superb.
Also, as someone said, what does the fact that Assault Strobe is sorcery actually matter, I mean, seriously, how often do we attack with 2-3 creatures, and the opponent has 2 creatures to block, and therefore we pump the free one........ It just doesn't happen. When we pump, we pump, and if he has removal he'll spend it after the instant as he would after the sorcery.

I will give G-R a try. Maybe add a couple lands, and probably some other 2cc crits. I would only play 2 or maximum 3 of the new Zerk. Not for the stacking problem, but because if we have 8 Berserk, how are we supposed to pump the creatures? ^^ There's no room for everything. I also see Seal of Strength gaining importance with 6-7 zerks, better than VoV, although we would lose our precious trollshroud...

I have to add that I see black as a really good colour for the deck: Dark Confidant would be our MVP, then the new Zerk, and a possible 1x Flying infect.

I don't know if you guys know about it, but there's a fun spanish Black-Green version of Berserk that goes like this:
4x False Cure 4x Kavu Predator
4x Invigorate 4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Reverent Silence 4x Summoner's Pact
4x ESG 4x L.Petal.
It's a lot more combo, and hilarious. Not good though ^^ But you should try it for casual.




One last thing, all of us should keep in mind:
We all complain about losing stability in a 3 color build, but if we go to deckcheck, all I see are Etienne's lists, with 3 colors. Are we maybe too obsessed, should be give 3 colors a try? I don't have duals, but maybe you guys do ^^

That Green/Black deck you're referring to is called "The Cure". It is not a bad build as it utilizes the gain life aspect more instead of pump. It is not a bad build (I've tried it), but I don't like mana screw. Which is why I don't splash.

You don't care about them using removal on the creature you're pumping? That is so bad...You've invested your entire hand into 1 creature only to get it bolted or pathed. BEING A SORCERY DOES MATTER, because then they know which creature you're going for. It is only negligible for troll shrouded creatures.

I still don't find it worth it to splash for 2-3 new cards. Waste of time, money, and subject to mana screw. If you want to dig for pump or zerk then run sylvan libraries.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

One last thing, all of us should keep in mind:
We all complain about losing stability in a 3 color build, but if we go to deckcheck, all I see are Etienne's lists, with 3 colors. Are we maybe too obsessed, should be give 3 colors a try? I don't have duals, but maybe you guys do ^^

This is true, I can't wait till people realize Monogreen Berserk sucks and we should try something new. The whole added stability thing is moot point if the deck loses. Oh great yeah your wastelands are dead, but umm I still lost. MONOGREEN IS TEH BEST!!!! We are not Merfolk, and sometimes they splash too. There is a reason Zoo plays 3 colors. Also I find the argument that we would be just a bad zoo deck if we go into more colors silly as well. That still does not illustrate why monogreen is better than multi, just that berserk decks are not as good as zoo. However, with the new printings, a multi color berserk deck might have a place in the metagame. Or you can keep on trying to make your monogreen pet deck better and just hit a wall. And you are going to hit that wall really fast in the name of stability. Sometimes the safe move is the reckless maneuver.

[Tru3z3rox]

I don't agree. Green provides us with enough. Troll shroud on its own destroys zoo. I've never lost a game against zoo.

I just looked on deck check and so far I've only seen 1-3 decks that have been multi colored. More is splashed for white than for red. Black didn't seem to be splashed at all. The only card splashed for red is 2 flings (or the new one).

[kicks_422]

If you do end up splashing red for Assault Strobe, you might want to take a look again at Kiln Fiend. A single Berserk/Strobe gives it a +6 power boost.

[Tru3z3rox]

If you do end up splashing red for Assault Strobe, you might want to take a look again at Kiln Fiend. A single Berserk/Strobe gives it a +6 power boost.

I actually agree to that. Kiln fiend is great in those decks that splash red. Along with 2 flings that would be sweet.

[NihilObstat]

I don't agree. Green provides us with enough. Troll shroud on its own destroys zoo. I've never lost a game against zoo.

I just looked on deck check and so far I've only seen 1-3 decks that have been multi colored. More is splashed for white than for red. Black didn't seem to be splashed at all. The only card splashed for red is 2 flings (or the new one).

You should also look at the number of player in the tournaments and the position those Stompy decks get. Etienne Villani has
2nd of 50, 2nd of 34, 4th of 44, 1st of 44. If you look at the other decks in deckcheck, most have places 3rd-8th out of 15-20 people...
You are right though, he "only" splashed for fling, or the very very crappy Kird Ape, right, compared to Skyshroud Elite, ape is so crappy..... jk.
But that was before our new 5-8th BERSERK ^^

On the other hand, I bet you are a lucky boy, because there was a long and complete testing on Zoo vs Zerk a few pages ago, and we all agreed that the pairing is 50%, not 100%. Even with Libraries.


What I meant that I don't care if my creatures get removed is that, if we are pumping Kavu, Skarggan, Nettle Sentinel or others, the thing is that if we don't have VoV and we pump them, and the other has removal, it won't matter if our Zerk runs instant speed, or sorcery, removal kills us anyway, and on a shroud creatures it definitely doesn't matter if it's instant or sorc. He has shroud !!!
What I meant is that there is no difference in pumping a creature after blockers have been assigned or before, at least not for our deck, and specially not if we run 6-7 Zerks, because the creature will run over anything.




Also I keep saying to go 3 colors, because I've tested it on MWS, and yes land-disruption sucks, but the rest of pairing are a piece of cake with that decks unstoppable speed, it's amazing. You all should try it at least on MWS. I also don't have Duals or I would try it in real life ^^

[Gui]

This is true, I can't wait till people realize Monogreen Berserk sucks and we should try something new. The whole added stability thing is moot point if the deck loses. Oh great yeah your wastelands are dead, but umm I still lost. MONOGREEN IS TEH BEST!!!! We are not Merfolk, and sometimes they splash too. There is a reason Zoo plays 3 colors. Also I find the argument that we would be just a bad zoo deck if we go into more colors silly as well. That still does not illustrate why monogreen is better than multi, just that berserk decks are not as good as zoo. However, with the new printings, a multi color berserk deck might have a place in the metagame. Or you can keep on trying to make your monogreen pet deck better and just hit a wall. And you are going to hit that wall really fast in the name of stability. Sometimes the safe move is the reckless maneuver.

Yet, most of the time it's not.

Stating that monogreen is worse without posting compared results, just saying it will lose anyway, is not good enough, IMO.

Saying that the way you just did is also offensive to everyone that had put any effort on tweaking that version.

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best. When I say that there's no reason to play Zoo over 3c stompy it's just because Zoo is way more played, and thus, way more tested and tweaked, and proved itself more than stompy did. You'll just spend the same at a deck not as well finished.

Also, there are not enough test results to state that a splashed stompy would win more than a monocolor one.

The monogreen one is not as bad as you say, it's probably the faster and safer way to pump-combo ftw, since it can consistantly run 15 lands w/o accelerators, providing more fuel for the final blow, and more creatures, so that you can still play the aggro role against control decks.


EDIT: That said, I still think we won't lose consistancy by splashing red for the additional berserks. I think we can do that as a minor splash, and depend only on a few Taigas for that. That's why I still think it's slightly superior to monocolor version.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Yet, most of the time it's not.

Stating that monogreen is worse without posting compared results, just saying it will lose anyway, is not good enough, IMO.

Saying that the way you just did is also offensive to everyone that had put any effort on tweaking that version.

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best. When I say that there's no reason to play Zoo over 3c stompy it's just because Zoo is way more played, and thus, way more tested and tweaked, and proved itself more than stompy did. You'll just spend the same at a deck not as well finished.

Also, there are not enough test results to state that a splashed stompy would win more than a monocolor one.

The monogreen one is not as bad as you say, it's probably the faster and safer way to pump-combo ftw, since it can consistantly run 15 lands w/o accelerators, providing more fuel for the final blow, and more creatures, so that you can still play the aggro role against control decks.


EDIT: That said, I still think we won't lose consistancy by splashing red for the additional berserks. I think we can do that as a minor splash, and depend only on a few Taigas for that. That's why I still think it's slightly superior to monocolor version.

Fair enough. Perhaps in trying to make a strong point, I said things too strongly. I apologize if I offended anyone :)

[NihilObstat]

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best.

That's what we need, testing. People who actually take Berserk to a tournament and post results. Even MWS could work. I don't have right now, because I have a Mac, and it doesn't work for mac.... :( can anyone help me with that?

That said, post results, please. 3colors-2colors-monocolor ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

Yet, most of the time it's not.

Stating that monogreen is worse without posting compared results, just saying it will lose anyway, is not good enough, IMO.

Saying that the way you just did is also offensive to everyone that had put any effort on tweaking that version.

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best. When I say that there's no reason to play Zoo over 3c stompy it's just because Zoo is way more played, and thus, way more tested and tweaked, and proved itself more than stompy did. You'll just spend the same at a deck not as well finished.

Also, there are not enough test results to state that a splashed stompy would win more than a monocolor one.

The monogreen one is not as bad as you say, it's probably the faster and safer way to pump-combo ftw, since it can consistantly run 15 lands w/o accelerators, providing more fuel for the final blow, and more creatures, so that you can still play the aggro role against control decks.


EDIT: That said, I still think we won't lose consistancy by splashing red for the additional berserks. I think we can do that as a minor splash, and depend only on a few Taigas for that. That's why I still think it's slightly superior to monocolor version.

Exactly. Thank you for understanding my point. I also understand what you mean about the splash. Are you still sure that white splash is not better?

I plan to take Zerk stompy to my next local (10-15) players and then to a larger tournament (25-30 or 45+) depending on how I feel.

And I agree about the testing. We all need to thoroughly test each build before arguing it heavily. I'll play test it heavily on sunday and then proxy up the white and red splashes to see which worked better for me. The reason I'm so anti-splash is because I've played the cure before. It is basically black splash zerk. I was usually color screwed or mana flooded. I rarely won in time. That is my reasoning.

[Gui]

Exactly. Thank you for understanding my point. I also understand what you mean about the splash. Are you still sure that white splash is not better?

I plan to take Zerk stompy to my next local (10-15) players and then to a larger tournament (25-30 or 45+) depending on how I feel.

And I agree about the testing. We all need to thoroughly test each build before arguing it heavily. I'll play test it heavily on sunday and then proxy up the white and red splashes to see which worked better for me. The reason I'm so anti-splash is because I've played the cure before. It is basically black splash zerk. I was usually color screwed or mana flooded. I rarely won in time. That is my reasoning.

I know The Cure, I usually read its forum, since some of their techs are similar to ours. I believe Berserk Stompy is more consistant than The Cure because we have some of The Cure's synergies, like Kavu+Invigorate, but we are not dependant on them to win. OFC they are not 100% dependant, but they depend a lot more than we do. A simple Silhana+Rancor can win us some games, or even a bunch of 1cc creatures, while they wish to chain their techs.

The mana screw is also why I defend a minor splash. If we run a manabase with forests, fetchlands, and taigas, then we can fetch taiga only when really needed, and even if it get wasted, we will have used it already.

I believe red is better because it accelerates us better, we can run more "zerks". White has Double Cleave, but it costs too much, it's pretty hard to chain that with VoV for example. But since white got the advantage of Noble Hierarch and Qasali, it's not certain, that's just what I think. Kiln Fiend and Goblin Guide are good options for the R splash, but if we add too much R, we'd have to reduce the amount of Forests (probably for more fetchlands) and by that, being more suceptible to mana screw. It could probably still have consistancy, tho.

[DrJones]

I've been testing some new ideas (and cards) on The Cure, the goldfish has improved dramatically and here are some results of the early testing of ten games with no mulliganing:

Going first:
2nd turn kill: 2
3rd turn kill: 6
4th turn kill: 1 (no lands hand)
5th turn kill: 1

Going second:
2nd turn kill: 4
3rd turn kill: 5
autoloss: 1

I'm still tweaking numbers, but it looks promising so far. And I think I finally addressed the manascrew problem. I'm reading the thread to see if I can steal some tech.

[Tru3z3rox]

I understand. My logic is that hierarch helps us bridge the gap and helps against color screw and wastelands. The 1 extra mana could be relevant though. It is still close to Etienne's list as we would use double cleave instead of fling.