But if you get matched up with a mono-colored deck, you can't play the arbiters because they obsolete one of your primary win conditions (mystic into one of the swords). But this is all theory; since I already have my playset, I might as well try it and see how it works out. But as of right now I am not convinced.Originally Posted by Deadpool
If you play against a mono-colored in Legacy (with no fetches), call me crazy, but you would logically side out Arbiter. I think the number of Tier 1 Legacy decks that search their decks for something outnumbers those that don't.
Well duh, but since we were discussing it in the main I was assuming we were talking about game 1. You put a card main because it is useful against enough match-ups that it's benefits outweigh it's hindrances. It's like medicine. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? I don't think so, but as I said, I'm going to try it next time I'm at a tournament and find out first hand.
Done some testing in MWS yesterday.
It seems like Arbiter and Mystic can coexist in this particular deck and that's awesome news. Moreover, E-Tutor sideboard seems to remain effective even with Arbiter maindeck (sideboard strategy has changed ofc.). I really like the fact that Arbiter reinforces our already powerfull manadenial strategy. Bad news are that Arbiter is not good vs Merfolks.
Now here's one interesting thought: one of Jotun Grunt's main strenghts in the ability to deal with Goyfs and KotR. But every deck with Goyf and/or KotR happens to run a decent amount of fetches, so Leonin Arbiter is effective against theese decks too. I don't call upon to replace Grunts with Arbiters, but think about this: you usually don't want Grunt on turn 2, but you absolutely want to cast Arbiter agains the majority of opponents asap.
Also, from first impression, Abiter is better than Grunt versus mono-Merfolks (and obv better vs splashed). Actually, both cards are bad, but I realy hate to not have a reliable equip carrier in early stages of the game. It's just that crucial turn 2, when I can't cast Avenger nor Grunt, but need to do at least something. Obv. Mystic is the MVP, but there are only 3 in the deck and I realy want to be more consistent here (and if I happen to draw equipment, I REALY want a body to carry it next turn and Grunt doesn't do the thing here).
All this makes me want to reduce the number of MD Grunts down to 2 and thus free up is at least one slot for Arbiter.
Here's my test list for reference
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair
9 Plains
4 Aether Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oust/Condemn
1 Goldmeadow Harrier - I count Harrier and StP-effects as cards with same purpouse, 'cause they actually here to stop creatures. Just felt that four 1-costed equip-carriers were slightly not enough
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclysm
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Oust/Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 free slot (Pithing Needle, Oust/Condemn)
Oust vs. Condemn question: first one hits Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant and manadorks, second one hits manlands and is more of a surprise. Don't know wich one to use...
Any comments are welcome.
Last edited by eq.firemind; 10-01-2010 at 04:15 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Well Oust hits everything while Condemn needs a critter to attack before going off. But Condemn does have the rare chance to give them less thn three life, a VERY rare chance at that. Either way, I would prefere Harrier #2 since he can shut down an Emrakul or other fatty before it can even attack.
I only run 4 fetches, so the Arbiter isn't a problem. I do agreen that in monowhite it should be even better. And yes, multiple Arbiters stack; this has earned me at least 1 concession in testing.
Wouldn't Path to Exile be the superior card here, comboing with Arbiter? Just a quick thought.
We went over that already. It's cute with arbiter, but works against us otherwise. It's a big nono when we are actively trying to manascrew them with mangara+wasteland.
Anyways, what's everyone's opinion on the storm matchup with Leonin's in the deck? It's actually looking like it might not be as bad as before. Another thing I've been wondering about is how effective a black splash for Bob, Thoughtseize and Vindicate would eb.
That was tried FOREVER ago. Wu and Wb were tested heavily with no good results coming.
I suppose that's before I followed the deck/thread. I'll take your word for it, you probably know more of it anyways.
They were being tested a few years ago when I first picked up this deck, some of the more seasoned D+T players would know more than me.
In my opinion the only splash worth the effort is the green one, which I personally run. It gives you access to Gaddock Teeg (headaches for a lot of decks, not just combo), Tarmogoyf (Goyf >>>> Grunt) and Qasali Pridemage (Pridemage >>>> Oblivion Ring). Those additions make the deck more disruptive and, at the same time, give it a faster clock.
This is true, but one of the good things about D+T is its ability to be Wasteland proof.
That is generally not an issue, as the only green cards are creatures so they can be vialed in. If you don't hace vial, you can simply fetch a forest. Also, it's not strange the case where I bait an opposing wasteland with a savannah if I have either wasteland + lands in hand or wasteland in hand + vial in play (especially now with arbiter).
If you're worried about mana screw in the g splash, I can assure you that it isn't a problem 99% of the time.
And I would like to note that not even monoW D&T is wasteland-proof, as it runs Karakas.
Rarely do I find myself fearing Wastelands in the MonoW version.
By wasteland proof i think he meant not having the right colors... as opposed to monoW, even if karakas is blown up, at least you still have the right color...it sucks having your savannahs wasted while you're holding your goyfs in hand...also i think the printing of leonin arbiter would mean more raw power for the monoW build as it really disturbs a lot of decks...
on another note, how was the sword of body and mind in the main?i'm thinking if you're running it, might as well up the jotun grunt count back up to 3...more food for him...any thoughts?
Sword of body and mind is really good with jotun grunt, but mediocre in every other situation. I like it as a fourth equipment, but it's just personal preference.
On another note, has anyone tried out Kemba, Kha Regent? I'm trying out this list.
//Lands
8x Plains
4x Karakas
3x Wasteland
4x Rishadan port
2x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Mother of Runes
2x Kemba, Kha Regent
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivon Ring
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Body and Mind
Note that I cut Goldmeadow Harrier. I find her generally unimpressive given the ammount of removal available to the deck.
Kemba? Really? Do let us know how she works out. Its an interesting choice, but it just seems cute, not good.
Hey, guess what? You were right!
She was good, but there was never a situation where I was like "Man, if it weren't for kemba I would have lost!" or even "If that kemba had been a harrier I would have won that game." I'm not exaggerative when I say that in 24 games versus 4 decks (approx. 10 where she was played) she did not change anything. She didn't just sit there doing nothing, she did make cats, but her absence wouldn't have changed the game very much at all.
What I would advise though is replacing goldmeadow harriers with kor duelists. I really don't like goldmeadow harriers, and kor duelist + jitte = gg.
Kemba doesn't look that intriguing from a distance to me. If I strap equipment onto something, I do that because I want to beat someone down with that, and a 2/4 vanilla bear for 3 that does something marginally neat IF it sticks around for a few turns doesn't seem like the best choice at that. Any other worthwhile (static) ability on a critter would probably be more beneficial, like First Strike or Protection-From-Something. What she's got going for her, apart from her awesome rack (wth, did I really write that? ;p), is the Legendary supertype. That did not save Isamaru, Hound of Konda, which beats for the exact same two points of damage and costs a THIRD of her mana investment. Do the math.
I think it'd be high time for WotC to print a mono-W 3mana legendary critter that really kicks ass in the aggro department, though. D&T has been waiting for so long, I hope the'll make it happen some time.
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