If you want to test Eternal Witness you should cut the Sphinx for it. They both have similar functions in that they help to keep your ridiculous dredging going by returning LED or Breakthrough.
And what do you think is much better? Witness or Sphinx?
I personally prefer Iona and FKZ, but if I had to run FKZ + Sphinx/Witness, I would run the Witness.
Anyways, so I've been trying to build a list that combines the best of both worlds as I've been constantly switching back and forth between LED and non-LED dredge. I like the explosiveness of the LED builds, but I also like the increased land count of the LED-less versions. The biggest problem I had with the LED build was that I would get hands with LED, Breakthrough, and a dredger, but no land to actually cast the Breakthrough. The other problem was getting hands without LED. When that happens I'm basically playing a shittier version of non-LED dredge cause the deck runs less lands, no Tribes, and dead DA's. As a result, when I dont have LED the rest of the hand/other hands tend to be less keepable.
Thus, I want a hybrid build that would incorporate the following in the MD (in addition to all the other normal dredge stuff of course):
2-3 Tireless Tribes
3-4 LED
2 Deep Analysis
14 Lands
The hard part is figuring out what to cut. I'm probably going to have to cut all the other cute maindeck DR targets (e.g. Iona). Many people have already advocated cutting cute maindeck Dread Return targets because theyre not needed. Results seem to agree: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37949. I'm not sure that FKZ is really even needed at all except in the combo matchup. I mean, imagine it's game one, and you manage to do the whole LED + Breakthrough + Deep Analysis bullshit on turn 1. Now you've basically dredged your entire deck and have a million zombie tokens. Realistically, what's going to stop you? Very few decks - with the exception of decks like Enchantress - can do anything about it.
This is the preliminary list I've been thinking of:
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
3 Tireless Tribe
Enchantments:
4 Bridge from below
Artifacts:
4 Lion's eye Diamond
Sorceries:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
Lands:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
Last edited by sa17dk; 10-07-2010 at 10:09 AM.
I'm runnig this SB:Originally Posted by sa17dk
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Undiscovered Paradise
When I board the LEDs out, I can board the 13th land in and hope for better
landdrops. The Citadel may be better here, but I'm running Paradise. (I'm owning it already and I want simply to test the 13th land.)
I think, that it can improve postboardgames by letting you hardcast a Grudge or Stinkweep Imp more consistence than with 12 lands.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
Exactly...it's diffucult to compare a LEDless list with a LED list. Due of that separated threads makes order.
Given my MD list posted above, this is what I would run in my SB:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Wispmare
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
Of course this is adapted to my meta. While I'd love to put a 15th land in the SB, I just dont have room. If a slot opens up it's immediately going to Firestorm because Firestorm has been godly.
Has anyone seriously tested Yosei as a DR target? I'm not claiming this to be an original idea, I just think it warrants bringing up again.
I wasn't a believer, until testing and loving him. Definitely prefer him over Iona. Either of them should win you the game early on so that's a wash. Later (say turn 4-5) an Iona won't do much if you're already behind. A Yosei however can help you immensely. He basically reads: Time-Walk your opponent. All your creatures are unblockable next turn.' Sign me up for that!
Yes you need a sac outlet to get his effect straight away, however you almost always have a therapy or another DR. Worst case scenario you have a 5/5 flyer. You can also sacrifice him multiple times and the ability will stack - potentially useful.
"But they still get an extra turn! FKZ kills instantly!!" etc.
Yes they get 'a turn'. Sure they could drop a land.... and then what? A Kird Ape isn't going to save them. And if they have a bunch of blockers (Goblins, Zoo often do), an FKZ probably wouldn't have got there anyways as they have enough to chump. With Yosei this is not an issue.
I still think FKZ deserves a place, I just think Yosei is a great tool to have as well. Combined with tokens he's often the only DR-target I need. Just thought I'd put it out there.
Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.
But isn't the LEDless list that is performing the best between the two? Does anyone have the numbers behind this?
What's the correct way to play Ancient Grudge? I'm just curious how effective it is at stopping artifacts like Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. Is the hope that you flip a Grudge into the yard early to force the opponent to activate them prematurely? It doesn't seem to do anything to prevent a player from topdecking and immediately activating hate cards.
If the need is for a proactive answer to graveyard hate, something like Unmask or Thoughtseize (provided you support it with enough lands) seems better to me. As a reactive answer to Crypt/Relic, Stifle counters both effects and can be played off of any land, although it conflicts with Breakthrough @ x=0. Force of Will is also playable if you bring in 4 Chain of Vapor with it.
Having Ancient Grudge in the opening hand is probably the best situation.
The idea is that Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus will be cracked on your terms, not your opponents. This is performed by the earlier stated having it in your opening hand or dredging into it.
Once the card is dredged into the graveyard, you stop dredging. This makes it so your opponent is forced to pop the graveyard hate. If they don't, you blow it up.
For other hate like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, etc. that's where Unmask comes in.
I've seen Force of Will played in Dredge lists, but not to great extent.
How often do you have 2 lands to hardcast Grudge? With 12-15 Lands this doesn't seem very common. Has anybody tried Stifle/FoW? You could play both at the same time and have a high enough blue count, and maybe even tip the combo matchup in your favor.
With 15 land casting any card in the deck becomes fairly easy. It may not look like it on paper, but it happens in high frequency.
If you're running 12-13 land, odds are you're playing an LED list that doesn't plan on casting creatures aside from discard outlets.
Personally I wouldn't run Force of Will. The deck already has an insanely tight list and trying to support Force of Will would already be difficult.
The combo matchup is pretty much a coin flip.
Most non-LED lists already contain 12 blue cards minimum (Narco, Breakthrough, Study). Add in 4 Stifle/4 FoW and you have enough blue and 8 cards that stop Crypt/Relic without slowing you down. If you expect Leyline, Jailer, or Wheel, bring in 4 Chain of Vapor/4 FoW.
I think that it's very hard for this deck to play FoW effectively, as, even though it theoretically plays enough blue cards to always have one in hand, it usually can't afford to pitch them because it needs those cards to execute its game plan (Narcomoeba is really the only one that is nice to pitch to FoW). A sideboard with playsets of Chain of Vapor, Stifle, and FoW might be able to actually afford to pitch a blue spell to FoW that's not crucial, but it's going to be tough figuring out what to cut from the maindeck to get all those cards in there without severely neutering the deck.
First off...
Wow! It's been a while since I visited the source and now Dredge is DTB! Cool! Just a suggestion, Would it be possible to change the Topic Name from "Ichorid" to "Dredge" so that we can all just move along from talking about [DTB] LED vs [DTW] Non-LED? C'mon guys, LED or Non-LED: Dredge is Dredge! XD
With the Bloodghast build, I prefer using Sun Titan over Eternal Witness simply because the ETB ability of Sun Titan is simply better in triggering Landfall because it isn't counted as your 1 land drop per turn. And you can do it each turn thereafter (When attacking). In addition, you can revive most of the permanents w/o casting them using our limited lands in play (Thug>Therapy>Narc for more tokens, Stinkweed Imp for defense, LED for mana/discard, etc). However, with lists that doesn't run Bloodghasts, I would prefer Eternal Witness over Sun Titan because it can fetch spells.
Actually I think that conversation should continue. If you were going to a Grand Prix or a Star City Games Open, which build would you bring? They are both dredge, however I think it is helpful info to know which deck version is best suited to today's metagame. Granted, in local metagames that answer will be very personal, but I think it is possible to arrive at a reasonable conclusion concerning larger metas.
Sorry for my poor choice of words there. What I was trying to suggest was to have the conversation in just one thread instead of having two separate threads since they are both Dredge.
I agree if you make a new thread for every variation of decks, it'd be harder to discuss the decks as whole.
16 Lord Folk VS Non 16 Lord VS Black Splash
Big Zoo VS Small Zoo
This would dilute the conversations about the deck.
I tested Yosei, because of the coolness factor and the thought, that with sacraficing him into another DR or with a Cabal Therapy, he could be strong enought to be seriously played. He pervormed average. Obviously the problem is, that without a DR or CT he is just a 5/5 flying, which is also very good, but not comparably to Iona or in certain situations FKZ.
Against TES you can disrupt him easily or simply race his token, which are too weak to stand against our Zombies.
But you're right. It is about pretty much about who is playing first.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
noLED has been Top8ing Milano recently... the list runs maindeck DR targets in place of some cards (I think at the cost of 2 lands and a Thug from the standard list).
Found it:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1329
Since I don't like the maindeck DR targets, I'd run the stock list together with that SB. Not sure about Blazing Archon, I guess I'd play another Chain over it. The format is just too random to ensure that Nature's Claim works well, so I'd stick to Chain as a catch-all.
Terastodon has been devastating for me when I played noLED. But i remember that I completely sucked out that day, I'm still not sure if it's my own fault or that the deck doesn't mulligan as well as I thought.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
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