[Deck] Solidarity

[Silent Requiem]

@ Dark Ritual

I really know what you mean about not wanting to "waste" Stroke of Genius on yourself when you might need it for your opponent. Too bad the sideboard is already so crowded.

As for Opt, keep in mind that with PtD I am much better able to pick and choose which spells I play, so fizzling is not really an issue. Do consider giving it a go; just see how it goldfishes.

It also worth noting that more and more people are playing 20 lands now, even though they still play Opt (see Vacrix's list). This is probably because people are not wanting to work so hard to find lands when they could instead be looking for combo pieces or disruption. That being the case, all I'm suggesting is taking out Opt for PtD. That's a straight up combo power boost!

@ brainwasher

I absolutely agree that everyone should start with the classic list, but after winning a local tournament or two, you should feel free to start tweaking the list (very slowly!) to fit your personal play style. Because of the extended decision trees in storm decks, tendencies towards a given action early in play can dramatically impact the later play state. That being the case, tweaking the deck to reward your decision preferences is sensible.

A simple example is FoI v PtD. I Freeze myself every 4 or 5 games, which makes FoI highly worthwhile. For people who's play decisions do not tend to lead to self-Freezing as often, FoI will seem less valuable. Similarly, some people Stroke themselves nearly every game. I think I've done that a handful of times in the 18 months or so I have been playing Solidarity.

Storm decks are as much art as science, and you really need to customize them to make them effective (which is why people who net-deck storm decks often get suboptimal results). Equally, though (and I suspect this is your point), too many people who do not really understand the deck make nonsensical changes to make the deck "better" and then complain that the deck sucks.

-Silent Requiem

[I am the brainwasher]

I did not mentioned another 2 matchups I feel not so confident about.

Ichorid and Storm.
Against Ichorid it was a very weird, because i have won a couple of times just by forcing one of their Drawspells or Discardoutlets. The other games i was totally blown out by Cabal Therapy and too much discard outlets from their side.
You are really lucky when they play the LED-List, which is more inconsistent and can be disrupted rather easy.

Stormcombo is really hard to beat because they are most of the times too fast to use their stormcount. Duress and thoughtseize doesnt make it better. Postboard you can try to push them back a few turns by countering their spells but its still not a good one.

To clarify this, this means definetly not that you cant win those mentioned matchups, but it is a lot more complicated and not always doable.

[Silent Requiem]

Strangely, Dredge and Storm are pretty good match-ups for me, or at least, have been consistently in tournament play.

I don't think I've ever lost to Dredge in a tournament, and only a few times in testing. But then, I fear Dredge, and pack loads of hate. Cunning Wish into Ravenous Trap tends to give me game 1, and side-boarded hate gives me game 2. Let's face it, they practically deck themselves; not much comboing required!

ANT (pre ban) was pretty much 50\50. I tend to win game 1, because Remand and FoW make them cry. Game 2 & 3 are tougher because of Silence/Swarm, but I only need to get to turn 4 before I can combo off myself.

Belcher is a very stressful match-up, but at the London Legacy Nationals I spent all seven rounds facing combo, and I won all three of my Belcher match-ups, so something was going right.

Spanish Inquisition is also a match-up I tend to win, but I appreciate that the pilot is only a few months into his deck. Incidentally, this deck is nearly as awesome as Solidarity. Very similar play style.

I've not played against TES.

I suppose that this just goes to show how responsive Solidarity is to the pilot. Other than CounterTop, most of the good/bad matches are based more on the pilot than on the deck.

-Silent Requiem

[throst54]

If only you could wish for cards that were removed to FoI still....that was actually probably the best thing about that card alongside stacking your deck and producing CA.

This is exactly why I dropped FOI. Stacking your deck is great, but at the point where you can stack your deck its nearly always "Win More".


Since the green splash seems to be a viable option for the time being, I wanted to know if anyone has tried running Weird Harvest
It would let us run a full 4 Turnabout MD, or just give us another one to wish for.

With aggro being as prevalent as it is, would running any number of Snap out of the SB for games 2-3 or is it too conditional? Unless they are shrouded I dont see it being a dead card, since they have to play creatures to win.

[ummon]

This is exactly why I dropped FOI. Stacking your deck is great, but at the point where you can stack your deck its nearly always "Win More".


Since the green splash seems to be a viable option for the time being, I wanted to know if anyone has tried running Weird Harvest
It would let us run a full 4 Turnabout MD, or just give us another one to wish for.

With aggro being as prevalent as it is, would running any number of Snap out of the SB for games 2-3 or is it too conditional? Unless they are shrouded I dont see it being a dead card, since they have to play creatures to win.

Agreed on FoI. As for Snap, somebody in this thread runs it SB. It really depends on how many SB slots you have open and what you will use them for.

However, I'm missing something about Weird Harvest. Isn't it the card that is sorcery speed and lets you tutor for creatures? I don't see how either function belongs in this deck.

[Silent Requiem]

I see Snap as an alternative to Repeal. They both bounce a creature, but one gives you a card and the other gives you mana. Which do you need more while comboing?

Keep in mind that Snap is narrower, however. Repeal actually has a shot at Counterbalance, and can bounce Vials, etc, which can be important. I once used Repeal on a Chrome Mox in response to Infernal Tutor/LED. That sort of thing can be randomly useful.

Conversely, Snap will happily bounce high cc creatures, whereas Repeal will not do so as efficiently.

Meta/playstyle call. I'm not interested in Snap, but I can understand why some people might use it.

-Silent Requiem

Edit. I think he means Early Harvest. I don't think that double green is achievable, especially as it applies only to basics.

[ScatmanX]

With aggro being as prevalent as it is, would running any number of Snap out of the SB for games 2-3 or is it too conditional? Unless they are shrouded I dont see it being a dead card, since they have to play creatures to win.

I'm really liking 2 Snap on the Board. It is great against agroo, while also being the best answer to Canonnist.

@TES: I usually win. Even if they discard our protec, if it past T2, we can search for more wih Impulse, PtD, Wish... I have even Meditated into Force to be able to counter an Infernal Tutor...

[throst54]

I like repeal too, its just next to impossible to repeal V-vine or Tombstalker.
Though i agree, snap gives you speed whereas repeal would give you consistency.

Yes, I meant Early harvest.
It would work fine as double green, you just have to remember to float the first green when you do your first reset/turnabout and get your 2nd when you actually goto cast it. If you end up deciding not to use it you just tuck it into another spell as colorless.
For example, if you look at that Spring Tide list that uses Comet Storm as a wincon (double R) it only runs 1 volcanic island.

I havent tried the green splash yet, but Im looking into it. Im mostly wondering how much of a difference there is between using Autumn's Veil and Determined.

[Vacrix]

Early Harvest is an interesting subject. I like the idea, but protecting your Tropical Islands isn't easy. If we were to play Early Harvest, in the board or maindeck, we would most certainly need to run more Trops maindeck. I'm sure it could be played in the Turnabout slot in Wasteland light metagames. I'm willing to expose my manabase if +70% of the decks in my meta lacked Wasteland. However, in Legacy, such a meta is probably unheard of.

Further, this lead me to question the application of Teferi's Response to protecting our land base. It could be a decent postboard option in Wasteland heavy metagames (or an unknown metagame). Has anyone played it?


Don't bother with Bound//Determined. UG is too taxing when you are trying to go off when compared to a single G of Veil, especially when you are trying to play around Daze and/or Spell Pierce on the combo turn.

SB:
1 High Tide
1 Brain Freeze
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Repeal
3 Teferi's Response

When I have the time, I want to test this board. Conveniently, my friend plays Goblins and Merfolk so testing shouldn't be an issue.

[Silent Requiem]

The problem with Early Harvest is that it does not untap Tropical Islands, only basic lands. Equally, High Tide does not work on Forests. So despite costing less than Turnabout, it is less mana efficient in this deck because in order to play it you need to run less efficient lands (whether that means Forests that do not benefit from High Tide or Tropical Islands that do not untap).

The comment about Snap to bounce a Hate Bear was interesting. With Repeal/Cryptic/etc you need to bounce in the end step of the previous turn, but of course Snap does not have that problem. Equally, it allows you to bounce AND PtD/Impulse/etc on turn 2. In an aggro heavy environment this could be very useful. I still think it's a metagame call, but it certainly has merit.

-Silent Requiem

[Dark Ritual]

The most problematic hatebear is def. ethersworn canonist the others are meh. For any hatebear other than canonist you can high tide then snap the hatebear back to hand and use it as a mana producing effect like in spring tide but not as potent since it isn't bouncing cloud of faeries however you still net +2 mana.

Teferi's response in splash lists seems quite good since you get to draw 2 cards and counter their wasteland or sinkhole. The main reason I'm not splashing green right now is for fear of wasteland blowing me out. Although I could test the green splash if I really wanted to play teferi's response in the SB for wasteland decks but that would mean cutting spell pierce then again CB/Top is on the decline so it isn't nearly as worrisome anymore.

[Vacrix]

The most problematic hatebear is def. ethersworn canonist the others are meh. For any hatebear other than canonist you can high tide then snap the hatebear back to hand and use it as a mana producing effect like in spring tide but not as potent since it isn't bouncing cloud of faeries however you still net +2 mana.

Teferi's response in splash lists seems quite good since you get to draw 2 cards and counter their wasteland or sinkhole. The main reason I'm not splashing green right now is for fear of wasteland blowing me out. Although I could test the green splash if I really wanted to play teferi's response in the SB for wasteland decks but that would mean cutting spell pierce then again CB/Top is on the decline so it isn't nearly as worrisome anymore.

You can't make that play on Cannonist. It prevents you from playing more than one spell in a turn. Even if you respond to it with High Tide, you still can't play Snap after it resolves because you've already played one non-artifact spell that turn. You'll have to play Snap first, unfortunately.

Its worth noting that Teferi's Response also protects you from Port, which is often run along side Wasteland.


Also, I misread Early Harvest. If it only untaps basics then its not worth running.

[igormagic]

Well, I won in a local tournament on Friday with 96 player. My decklist:

13 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Mana/Untap

4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Reset

Draw

3 Meditate
1 Flash of Insight
4 Impulse
3 Peer Through Depths
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt

Protection

4 Force of Will
1 Cryptic Command
3 Remand

Other

1 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish

SB

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe away
2 Repeal
1 Words of Wisdom


After I post a report

[ScatmanX]

@Vacrix:

The most problematic hatebear is def. ethersworn canonist the others are meh. For any hatebear other than canonist

@ Everyone: why you guys preffer Words of Wisdom over Vision Skeins?

[kombatkiwi]

@Vacrix:

@ Everyone: why you guys preffer Words of Wisdom over Vision Skeins?

Because words of wisdom gives your opponent one card and vision skeins gives them two? They're both same mana cost instants

I guess that if you just brain froze them for game, the chance of them having exactly two cards is quite small. They're either going to have none or 3+

So the chance of them drawing a force of will or an orims chant or something with the extra card off skeins when you're desperate in the middle of a combo is much more dangerous than the chance of them having exactly two cards after a stroke/freeze and not being able to kill them with words of wisdom

[Silent Requiem]

Congrats on the win, igormagic; 96 players is not a small event. Any chance of a tournament report?

Also, I really like your list. It seems to be a compromise between what I am running and a traditional build. I must admit that I skipped straight past 19 lands to 20, but perhaps I should give it a go.

-Silent Requiem

[Olesch]

I playtested a bit with a friend yesterday. I would like to share some thoughts on the landstill matchup or other decks with numerous counters.

When we go off we would like to have at least theese three cards in hand: High Tide, Meditate, Reset. That leaves four other cards in hand. These four cards might be backup or another Meditate etc. The problem I encountered was that as I was sculpting my hand, my friend was to. He build up with Counterspells, Forces, Cunning Wish/Mindbreak Trap, Spellpierce (Spellpierce was not a problem, but still) etc. At all times he had four counters or more and I experienced that it was impossible to fight through all those counters. He let High Tide resolve as he also benefits from it. I also experienced that FoW was quite useless due to the card disadvantage. That left me to either ignore my friends counters and play the stack, Remand my own spells and replay them or protect through Mindbreak Trap, but I came up empty handed each time.

How would you guys handle such a scenario?

[ScatmanX]

Because words of wisdom gives your opponent one card and vision skeins gives them two? They're both same mana cost instants

I guess that if you just brain froze them for game, the chance of them having exactly two cards is quite small. They're either going to have none or 3+

So the chance of them drawing a force of will or an orims chant or something with the extra card off skeins when you're desperate in the middle of a combo is much more dangerous than the chance of them having exactly two cards after a stroke/freeze and not being able to kill them with words of wisdom

If you Wish for Words of Wisdom just because of card advantage, you should be running a Three Wishes instead.
I thought it was in the SB for using after a Brain Freeze, for the kill. In that case, Visions Skeins is better, since it kills a player that packs a Progenitus at the spot.

[Silent Requiem]

I playtested a bit with a friend yesterday. I would like to share some thoughts on the landstill matchup or other decks with numerous counters.

When we go off we would like to have at least theese three cards in hand: High Tide, Meditate, Reset. That leaves four other cards in hand. These four cards might be backup or another Meditate etc. The problem I encountered was that as I was sculpting my hand, my friend was to. He build up with Counterspells, Forces, Cunning Wish/Mindbreak Trap, Spellpierce (Spellpierce was not a problem, but still) etc. At all times he had four counters or more and I experienced that it was impossible to fight through all those counters. He let High Tide resolve as he also benefits from it. I also experienced that FoW was quite useless due to the card disadvantage. That left me to either ignore my friends counters and play the stack, Remand my own spells and replay them or protect through Mindbreak Trap, but I came up empty handed each time.

How would you guys handle such a scenario?

That is an excellent question, and one that is often overlooked as the control matchup is fairly rare.

First, you don't actually have a 7 card hand - you have a hand of 7 cards plus 1 for each FoI in your graveyard. This is a huge advantage, so don't forget about it. I turn my FoI at a 90 degree angle to the rest of my gy to make sure I see them everytime I look in that direction. Sometimes, I go off in my own turn (fairly easy with 8+ lands), which means I have 8 cards plus 1 for each FoI.

Second, you don't need to actually resolve any of your combo spells to win this matchup; the counter war alone should generate enough storm to pretty much deck the guy. His 7 cards, your 7 (8) cards plus 2 FoI = 16 (17) storm. More than enough, unless he manages to resolve a late Stifle/Mindbreak Trap. And if he's saving those cards for the Brainfreeze then he is not going to be able to stop you going off, which means you will fill your hand with countermagic of your own.

Incidentally, when I talk about the added resilience of the FoI builds, this is what I mean. They may not be as efficient, but the can take a real beating and get the job done.

-Silent Requiem

[Olesch]

@Silent Requiem: Se my questions below.

That is an excellent question, and one that is often overlooked as the control matchup is fairly rare.

First, you don't actually have a 7 card hand - you have a hand of 7 cards plus 1 for each FoI in your graveyard. This is a huge advantage, so don't forget about it. I turn my FoI at a 90 degree angle to the rest of my gy to make sure I see them everytime I look in that direction. Sometimes, I go off in my own turn (fairly easy with 8+ lands), which means I have 8 cards plus 1 for each FoI.

How do you get your FoI in your graveyard, BF yourself? how do you set that up? Or do you just cantrip them? Sounds on your description like it is an common scenario. When you go off during your turn then you totally rely on Turnabout i guess?

Second, you don't need to actually resolve any of your combo spells to win this matchup; the counter war alone should generate enough storm to pretty much deck the guy. His 7 cards, your 7 (8) cards plus 2 FoI = 16 (17) storm. More than enough, unless he manages to resolve a late Stifle/Mindbreak Trap. And if he's saving those cards for the Brainfreeze then he is not going to be able to stop you going off, which means you will fill your hand with countermagic of your own.

Then I guess you need a BF in your hand when going off?

Incidentally, when I talk about the added resilience of the FoI builds, this is what I mean. They may not be as efficient, but the can take a real beating and get the job done.

I have a hard time seeing this scenario in front of me that you describe. Alot of pieces which needs to be in place. You actually need 2 BF if I understood everything correct? Could you please write down a play scenario in more detail? I think it is very interesting and I really want to know.

-Silent Requiem