Ban Survival of the Fittest now.
Ban Vengevine now.
Ban Survival of the Fittest and Vengevine now.
Wait 4-6 months, if format's still broken ban Survival.
Wait 4-6 months, if format's still broken ban Vengevine.
Wait 4-6 months, if format's still broken ban both.
I will never be in favor of banning either card, people just refuse to adapt and it's their fault.
Forget banning anything, just unban more stuff.
For the sake of argument:
SCG 5K Tournament performance since June 27th.
Vengevine showing:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...vent_type=SCLO
Survival showing for same time period:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...vent_type=SCLO
22 Decks featuring Vengevine
23 Decks featuring Survival of the Fittest
West side
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I voted wait and maybe kill the vine.
But in my undevelloped meta in geneva, the survival which went top 4 last time is a wuacht survival ( i.e. sans vine).
This said we 're a small comunity and our meta doesn't follow fashion .
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Nope, Vengevine survival doesn't dominate anything over here in Germany, neither in Spain or Italy. It sure is viable over here, but not half as dominant as at you guys.
Banning Vengevine or Basking Rootwalla would be an absolutely horrendous mistake. Remember what happened with Necropotence back in the old Extended? Wizards banned cards that synergized with Necro but didn't actually ban Necro itself. Every time a new round of cards was banned, Necro just kept finding finding new friends to continue to cause problems. It wasn't until Necro actually got the axe itself that all the problems it caused all of a sudden just disappeared.
The same thing would happen with Survival decks if a card like Vengevine would be banned instead of Survival. Survival will just find new cards to continue to abuse and wreak havoc with. Considering a lot of you (including me!) want to see more cards *unbanned*, I don't think you want to see a handful of cards get banned simply because of their synergy with Survival.
Seriously, we've already been down this road before and I really don't want to see history repeat itself. If you want to stop a problematic deck via bannings, you ban the heart of deck, not the cards that piggyback off of it.
The same Surging Chaos on Salvation.
+1
Just wait some time and see what happens. Then, IF a ban is needed ban Survival (despite me really liking the card, but that's not the point) and not VeVi, for the reasons you stated. It would be like having a broken Storm Combo deck and banning Tendrils or Brain Freeze. I am quite sad to see the illogical option having a majority here.
Illogical?
Survival has been fine for years. It never caused any problems nor did it look warped enough. Just like Mystical Tutor pushed Combo over the top (in the eyes of the DCI), Vengevine pushed Survival over the top.
Why ban what is fine when you can ban what caused the problems?
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This. The necro example doesnt make sense because Necro was never in the format and NOT broken where as Survival has been around for quite a while and only since VV has it started to make an impact
I personnaly own a playset of both vv and survival, I do think survival has to be banned rather than vv.
Vengevine would still be playable with intuition, while way less powerfull I admit. But the fact than vengevine would still see play as a tier 1.5 deck
means less power for control/counterbalance.deck. I think the format would be more open. Others deck would still have their chance without the "I draw survival I win". Furthermore I find the survival mirror quite boring, too much determined by who draws the more survival/fow.
I think Surging Chaos has a good point. Banning an enabler like Survival makes much more sense than banning something like Vengevine. Survival is much more likely to become degenerate again unlike Vengevine which won't really do too much without it.
If you ban the heart of the deck the whole archetype dies overnight. I hope to god that survival stays off the banned list; and if you had to ban the heart of a deck why did the DCI ban mystical tutor? The card by itself does nothing; the cards around it do. If they banned mystical tutor a support piece of ad nauseam decks why didn't they just straight up ban ad nauseam itself or tendrils of agony for that matter? The case is the same with vengevine and survival. Vengevine by itself is a 4/3 haste for 2GG that when pitched to survival becomes CA because of rootwalla's recurring them. And what degenerate deck will survival be used in if vengevine is banned? Nothing. Don't tell me that necrotic ooze combo will take the throne because that isn't possible with good GY hate or pithing needle on survival. Crypt wrecks the combo. leyline of the void wrecks it. extirpate wrecks the combo. There's so many ways to hate the combo it isn't even funny whereas how to hate vengevine well extirpate and pithing needle are about the best ways of doing it while leyline of the void is decent against it.
I voted wait 4-6 months and if the deck is still causing problems ban vengevine.
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the idea behind banning Mystical Tutor was plain and simply that they wanted to ban a cheap and very effective (in their words "Tier 1") Tutor. The fact that doing so weakened two decks to the point of near obsoleteness is secondary to the fact that the tutor was itself a busted factor in those decks. (another reason they banned Mystical Tutor and not Ad Nauseam or Tendrils of Agony was because they wanted to neuter more than just the storm decks, they also wanted to weaken the Reanimator decks).
On the same point of view, it can now be said that in many ways Survival of the Fittest is in fact a Tier 1 Tutor. It is a cheap, repeatable tutor that can search out efficient and effective threats, often in the same turn. It doesn't suffer the drawback of Mystical or Enlightened Tutor in that both of those can only be used once and then they are done. Survival can be used repeatedly over the course of the game without having to devote more copies of the spell to the field. Thus you are protected by the redundant copies from enchantment removal.
What makes this worse, is even if they did ban Vengevine, you still have other creatures that are just as versatile and deadly in Survival decks. Emrakul and Iona when combined with Loyal Retainers for example. Or how about the Necrotic Ooze combo? And who is to say further combinations to abuse with Survival of the Fittest won't come out in the future?
Rest assured, Survival decks will not go away completely even if they do ban Survival of the Fittest. Because they will not ban Fauna Shaman. I doubt they will ban any given Creature unless it is an obvious broken creature on the scale of Worldgorger Dragon and even that one is debatable as to whether it belongs on the banlist still or not. However at the moment the most banworthy card is definitely Survival of the Fittest and not Vengevine or Basking Rootwalla, or even Fauna Shaman.
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Unban stuff.
You're looking at this the wrong way. Even though Survival hasn't been a broken card for years, that doesn't automatically exempt the card from being banned. Survival has always been on the precipice of being broken because of the fundamental nature of how the card works. Survival is like having half a dozen tutor cards all rolled up into one. Historically, tutors are one of the most powerful types of cards in all of Magic. Every time a new set comes out, Survival just gets better and better, and that has been proven off of big creatures like Iona and Emrakul piggybacking off of Loyal Retainers, and Vengevine piggybacking off of Survival's "drawback". It was only a matter of time before a card came out that took Survival to the next level.
You can almost equate Survival to a volcano that has been simmering for a long time. Eventually the magma starts to rise (more and more good creatures that synergize with Survival are printed) and build up pressure until you reach a breaking point that causes the whole thing to erupt (Vengevine comes out).
Combo decks live and die off of tutors more than any other archetype. That's why kill cards like Tendrils or Ad Nauseam didn't get banned. Instead, they banned the enabler that facilitates everything (sound familiar?). Mystical Tutor lets you cheat on your Ad Nauseams so you only have to run 2 of them to make sure you don't commit suicide when going off, as well as play silver bullets in the process or find your protection much easier. Also, Mystical Tutor was not just run by ANT. Reanimator made extensively heavy use of Mystical Tutor as well, by giving that deck the ability to not only double up on its Entombs/reanimation spells, but also the ability to use silver bullets as well as Tendrils deck were able to.
It is fruitless banning kill cards like Vengevine and Ad Nauseam. As long as the engine of a ridiculous deck remains, that deck will just find new cards to abuse and continue to cause the same problems.
The same Surging Chaos on Salvation.
I went to two tournaments this weekend (one 45 people and one 32), and I only saw one Vengevine Madness deck over both tournaments. It seems like the deck hasnät caught on here in Sweden yet, and boy do I feel dumb for packing Hibernation both days. :/
We have one of those extremely developed metas where every single deck you will play against is a top notch version in the hands of someone with a few pro points no less. Even in a 20 person tournament you're going to have a rough time. Survival never makes it past the lower rounds. It's never been in the top except once in our local tournaments when I played it to a win and even then I didn't feel like it was that strong. It's good, but not overwhelmingly. I only got lucky and hit a bunch of aggro decks like Merfolk. I don't get the hype over this.
The control decks eat this thing alive. No one seems to have remembered that Pithing Needle is a good card except around here. Humility works wonders on them. I am playing a deck with that and I must say it's a nice feeling knowing you can't really lose if you drop it. It's not like they have a way out of these global strategies. It's just a good creature deck and people need to realize that their much loved pet deck of Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk don't beat the crap out of Survival. Play something different already. Storm and Control have almost no problem with Survival.
If anything, Spell Snare is pretty cool i hear.
What I'm most annoyed about is the constant complaining about vengevine deck. I think if they banned either there would be more complaining about the 250$ people just lost, so I'm on the fence. Either way I want less complaining.
You do know that card has been fine since 1997?.
it took them over 13 years to make a card that put it in the tier 1 catagorie...
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This. Times infinity. Dump the Vengevine, if anything.
Or, as someone said on the last page, unban shit like crazy. Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Land Tax, Goblin Recruiter, Hermit Druid. It would at least give people something else to complain about. Or allow Tarmogoyf to be played as an 8-of.
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Everyone is going to shit their pants when I win the next big SCG 5k with RGW Firespout Fog. Just you watch.
Maybe UGR. Really it's a matter of Angel's Grace and Silence vs. running enough blue/Islands to support Force/Daze.
Don't ban anything really. In Belgium and the Netherlands the deck isn't as dominating as in the 5K series. Maybe it's because there's alot of very good stormcombo players in the Netherlands which the decks don't seem to like. Here in Belgium the last tournament had a final Goblins-Death 'n taxes with leonin arbiter in the main I think (boehoe survival).
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