Survival of the Fittest

[ryO!]

France. from september to november

52 men September

1-Burn with lynx
2-Countertop UGR
3-Merfolk U
4-Merfolk U
5-HiveMind
6-TES
7-CanadianThresh
8-Merfolk Ub

178 men October

1-Supreme Blue
2-Reanimator
3-Berseck Stompy
4-Painter
5-Ichorid
6-Landstill
7-Zoo
8-Ichorid

80 men October

1-Survival UG
2-Big Zoo
3-Bant
4-Big Zoo
5-Survival Gr
6-Elfeball
7-GW Aggro
8-Survival Gbw

44 men October

1-Ghast Dredge
2-Burn with lynx
3-Rock BGW
4-PainterNought
5-HiveMind
6-JaceStill
7-Merfolk
8-Merfolk


84men october

1-GWB Rock
2-Elball
3-Ooze Combo
4-CTop URg
5-
6-TES
7-ProBant
8-GW Survival

48 men november

1-UWg JaceStill
2-Ant
3-SnT emrakul
4-Rock BGW
5-HiveMind
6-Dredge
7-
8-Enchantress

yeah "ouh la la" Survival has taken down the equilibrium of the meta.

[Nelis]

Maybe its a cultural difference between the US and Europe?

It seems to me that Americans in general are quicker to pick up a deck that has proven to be strong. You know, that winners mentality Americans are known for. More people pick Survival up and as a result those decks are featured more in top 8ths in the US than in Europe. I think the same was true a while back when Zoo was so dominant in the US metagame and not so much over here.

I'm not sure why it is different in Europe. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the European countries have different metagames because of their cultural differences?

[piZZero]

Though I might be wrong (I wasn't there), I've never heard that. Considering top 8 data:

LCL September (105 players)
Top8
1. TES
2. GWu Madness Survival
3. Merfolk
4. Big Zoo
5. Pox
6. Welder Survival - no veggies
7. Ichorid
8. TES
Metagame breakdown

LCL October (100 players)
Top 8
1. Bant Countertop
2. ProBant Countertop
3. Welder Survival - no veggies
4. Merfolks
5. Rebels (lol)
6. R/G Goblins
7. Gw Survival
8. Ooze Survival
No betagame breakdown available at the moment.

And look at those Countertop Bant with MD Pithing Needle and SB Aven Mindcensor... All sarcasm aside, I wasn't there and, again, I might be wrong, but as far as Top 8 data goes and considering what other catalan players say, I don't have the impression that Survival is clearly dominating that metagame.

And maybe we europeans are dumb (not denying it) but I see plenty of top 8 results that differ from what we see in the SCG Open series. For example:

Landfall 2 (Italy) - 10/03/10 - 121 players - 2 Vengevine decks out of 8
Eternal Weekend (Spain) - 10/10/10 - 293 players - 2 out of 8 - Metagame breakdown available - Spring Tide sucks.
Open Last Chance CDF Legacy (France) - 16/10/10 - 178 players - 0 out of 8 (1 out of 16) - Anyways, not decklists as far as I know and Berserk Stompy sucks too.

The SCG results have always been different, less diverse than every other tournament, I don't know why, maybe the people playing in the SCG Opens are the best Legacy players in the world, probably, but I haven't feel that dominance in other metagames.

This post doesn't try to uphold the idea that VV is not that powerful, I can't tell, I just say that I don't feel that dominace we currently see in the SCG Open series happens everywhere. If we had had SCG Opens back in 2009, everybody in the top 16 would have played Nassif Countertop and maindecked Grips so that Top should have been banned or something.

So you are confirming my point, right? In those 2 last tournaments Survival was clearly dominant. And I speak about Survival (which I think it's the problem) and not Vengevine. September, 2 out of 8 top8 decks where Survival based. If you take a closer look to the metagame, there were 8 survival decks (7.61% of the metagame, 25% of the Top8), being the archetype with the most decks on the field (in second position there's Goblins with a 4.76%).

October, 3 out of 8 top8 decks where Survival based (37.5% of the Top8), and trust me, Survival was played massively in the October tournament. If there weren't more Survival decks in the top8, is basically because good players choosed to play other decks. That simple.

[Gui]

Anyways, not decklists as far as I know and Berserk Stompy sucks too.

Not fair, we put a lot of effort on Berserk Stompy =(

/spam

[Nelis]

So you are confirming my point, right? In those 2 last tournaments Survival was clearly dominant. And I speak about Survival (which I think it's the problem) and not Vengevine. September, 2 out of 8 top8 decks where Survival based. If you take a closer look to the metagame, there were 8 survival decks (7.61% of the metagame, 25% of the Top8), being the archetype with the most decks on the field (in second position there's Goblins with a 4.76%).

October, 3 out of 8 top8 decks where Survival based (37.5% of the Top8), and trust me, Survival was played massively in the October tournament. If there weren't more Survival decks in the top8, is basically because good players choosed to play other decks. That simple.

So you call 1 or 2 top 8 places for an archetype dominant? I don't. And even if a deck is a bit more dominant than other decks that's no problem as long as its not overly dominant. In fact when I look at those top 8s I see a very healthy metagame.

If the good players chose to play other decks they probably did so because they thought it would be good vs (VV) Survival and also good enough to fight other decks. To me (if what you're saying is true) that would be an indication that the metagame is still evolving and that a banning would come too early and probably isn´t even necessary (yet).

[Gui]

To be totally honest, and I simply don't care whether they get or not banned although I like the speculation and the motivation for it, being a dominant Deck/Archetype is not enough reason for ban, and certainly not the main reason. UGr Threshold was a dominant deck for at least 2 years and got nothing banned by then.

The fact that more players use the deck won't change anything. Mystical Tutor was banned due to unfair results from ANT against a field of control decks (CB+Tops, which were dominant). ANT was not dominant, and yet WotC had enough data to say it was imbalanced. Tarmogoyf has been here for long time now, and won't get banned either. After all these years playing magic, if you really believe that WotC decide what to ban based on format shows rather than using Statistics and playtests, then why whould we spend our money with cards to play this game anyways?

[godryk]

So you are confirming my point, right? In those 2 last tournaments Survival was clearly dominant. And I speak about Survival (which I think it's the problem) and not Vengevine. September, 2 out of 8 top8 decks where Survival based. If you take a closer look to the metagame, there were 8 survival decks (7.61% of the metagame, 25% of the Top8), being the archetype with the most decks on the field (in second position there's Goblins with a 4.76%).

October, 3 out of 8 top8 decks where Survival based (37.5% of the Top8), and trust me, Survival was played massively in the October tournament. If there weren't more Survival decks in the top8, is basically because good players choosed to play other decks. That simple.

I don't know piZZero.

I don't see anything wrong with Survival Welder making it to the top 8. I don't see why we should consider all the Survival decks (Bant Survival, Welder Survival, Survival Elves, Madness, "Survival" and so on), an archetype at the same level as Goblins and claim it was the most played. We can talk about Jace decks, Counterbalance decks, Bant Decks and create many archetypes to make them the most played. Last summer I saw plenty of tournament results incluiding 5 "Jace decks" out of the first 8. I claim that Survival Bant (before VV) and Pro Bant are more similar than Survival Welder and Survival Elves. Most of people agree that the problem started when Vengevine was printed (more exactly after GP Columbus), even though people might argue about which card deserves the axe. The only thing I see with that metagame breakdown is that Survival is a fun card that enables a lot of different decks.

I can't speak about October LCL, you were there and we have no data yet. But I will stop all the math fun to say that I just don't think we can compare the situation to what we see in the SCG Open series.

Maybe its a cultural difference between the US and Europe?

It seems to me that Americans in general are quicker to pick up a deck that has proven to be strong. You know, that winners mentality Americans are known for. More people pick Survival up and as a result those decks are featured more in top 8ths in the US than in Europe. I think the same was true a while back when Zoo was so dominant in the US metagame and not so much over here.

I'm not sure why it is different in Europe. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the European countries have different metagames because of their cultural differences?

I don't know. We can say that success in a tournament involves a combination of picking the right deck (the most suited for a given metagame or simple the best one), experience with the deck (testing), playskill (being a good player) and a certain amount of luck. After four years reading The Source, players here seem more concerned about finding that "best deck" and play it or bitch about it. Goblins, Counterbalance, ANT, Merfolk, Reanimator, Zoo and, for a briefly lapse of time, Flash, have been considered format-warping for many people over here. Among these, only Flash and, arguably, Reanimator, were format wrapping enough to motivate some bannings. Is Vengevine strong enough? I guess it's similar to Reanimater but not close to Flash. However, it seems that Wizards is more friendly towards creature-based aberration, specially if they're based in something out of a new set (profit motive and shit).

Not fair, we put a lot of effort on Berserk Stompy =(

/spam

Just kidding about bad decks winning tounaments.

[dirtyapes]

I think the problem with using statistics of just Survival in a deck can be misleading on whether it should be banned. There are so many decks that use it like godryk said. None of these decks were considered overpowered and format warping until Vengevine was printed. Since then , Survival decks have spiked in popularity because they are resilient and can be explosive. It's like saying Aether Vial should be banned because it shows up in Goblins and Merfolk which have similar numbers of top 8s and 16s as Survival does in whatever form.

Wizards hates banning creatures because they want every game to be decided on turning your cards 90 degrees rather than winning any other way but this seems to be a time when a creature is "warping" the format. I'm not even really sure that Vengevine should be banned because the deck isn't that hard to beat when you know its coming. Every color has multiple ways of dealing with it and they are all cards that decks or SBs already have in them.

[piZZero]

To me the problem is that WotC keeps printing good creatures, making Survival of the Fittest lot better than what it was few years ago. Now you can use Survival to put Vengevines, Ionas, Emrakuls, Necrotic Ooze, Wurmcoil Engine, Sphinx of the Steel wind, and a super long etc. The "let's make better creatures" began in Future Sight with the printing of Tarmogoyf, and I can't foresee any change on that WotC policy.

So yes, I do think Survival is overpowered not because of the enchantment itself, but for the creatures that are being printed.

[Tacosnape]

You really think Survival's going to take 50% of the top 8 spots in the SCG Open if Vengevine is banned? I think you might see it hit one top 8 per two tournaments, if that. Ooze Survival's all fun and good, but it takes two more mana on average to set up the Ooze combo, and Faerie Macabre wrecks it unless they play multiple copies of Triskelion and Devourer, and the more copies they play of it, the worse the deck becomes if they don't have the Survival.

Vengevine's so amazing because it doesn't require you run anything bad in your deck to abuse the combo. No Squee. No Devourer. No Triskelion. And Rootwalla's actually been pretty good in Survival this whole time. The worst card it makes you run is actually Vengevine, who often is a 5/4 hasted green beater on turn three off a Noble Hierarch. Not too bad for the worst card in the deck. In otherwords, that whole argument about Survival being bad if you don't get a Survival? Vengevine solved it.

[GGoober]

France. from september to november

52 men September

1-Burn with lynx
2-Countertop UGR
3-Merfolk U
4-Merfolk U
5-HiveMind
6-TES
7-CanadianThresh
8-Merfolk Ub

178 men October

1-Supreme Blue
2-Reanimator
3-Berseck Stompy
4-Painter
5-Ichorid
6-Landstill
7-Zoo
8-Ichorid

80 men October

1-Survival UG
2-Big Zoo
3-Bant
4-Big Zoo
5-Survival Gr
6-Elfeball
7-GW Aggro
8-Survival Gbw

44 men October

1-Ghast Dredge
2-Burn with lynx
3-Rock BGW
4-PainterNought
5-HiveMind
6-JaceStill
7-Merfolk
8-Merfolk


84men october

1-GWB Rock
2-Elball
3-Ooze Combo
4-CTop URg
5-
6-TES
7-ProBant
8-GW Survival

48 men november

1-UWg JaceStill
2-Ant
3-SnT emrakul
4-Rock BGW
5-HiveMind
6-Dredge
7-
8-Enchantress

yeah "ouh la la" Survival has taken down the equilibrium of the meta.

Wished I was in EU, metagame there looks much more diverse than our Standard Legacy meta of Rock + Survival decks currently...

[Koby]

France. from september to november

Decklists

yeah "ouh la la" Survival has taken down the equilibrium of the meta.

My question to you, which of these decks also packed Vengevine? Which decks did not? Are these Survival decks overlapping with Vengevine decks?

[nedleeds]

You really think Survival's going to take 50% of the top 8 spots in the SCG Open if Vengevine is banned?

I think <insert anything> is going to take 50% of the top 8 spots in the <insert tourney> if 75% of the field and 90% of the better players are copying it off the internet and playing it.

Give me a break. Week to week at local legacy tourneys the many varients of survival are just one of many powerful fast decks, less explosive then TES / Belcher but less susceptible to control. No less or more powerful then Belcher vs. a field of man based decks.

Can we start a pithing needle / krosan grip / extirpate / planar void / propaganda / ghostly prison / hibernation or Wheel of Sun and Moon fund for these poor souls?

[PanderAlexander]

I'm ok with you point PanderAlexander but they been making horredouns creatures like, eldrazis and progenitus and at the same time they designed very carefullly to not be cheated into play with reanimator spells or come into play abilities.

I think that magic involve creatures and survival involve beating the oponent with creatures. Is what they like.

What I said was:

"they may make a mistake and print a too powerful creature that has synergery with Survival."

Why are you pointing out big creatures like Progentus, while you're at it why don't you point out Tarmogoyf and Knight of Reliquary, they all are also irrelevent to what we're discussing. Even the Eldrazi you meantioned has synergy with Emrakul and Loyal but that's hardly played and not so good. I'm talking about creatures that even just recent was printed like Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze, who's power level is okay but combined with Survival they do completey crazy things that the design team didn't mean for or expect. Say they do ban Vengevine like you said, then 1-2 years later they accidently print a creature that by itself is pretty cool but is broken with Survival what should they do, ban that creature too? And once again to clarify for you, I'm not talking about just really big and powerful creatures by themselves, I'm talking about creatures that have completely synergy with Survival of the Fittest. I'm not for or against any bans, but I'm just saying if they do ban something they'll probably choose Survival over Vengevine.

[bleuisforwhimps]

I see people complaining about being hit for 20 on turn 4 by VV and random creature. To them I say if you play against zoo, goblins,dredge,combo,burn,.... without disruption or blockers you also die turn 4 sometimes, so quit being amazed.

I think <insert anything> is going to take 50% of the top 8 spots in the <insert tourney> if 75% of the field and 90% of the better players are copying it off the internet and playing it.

Give me a break. Week to week at local legacy tourneys the many varients of survival are just one of many powerful fast decks, less explosive then TES / Belcher but less susceptible to control. No less or more powerful then Belcher vs. a field of man based decks.

Can we start a pithing needle / krosan grip / extirpate / planar void / propaganda / ghostly prison / hibernation or Wheel of Sun and Moon fund for these poor souls?

QFT

[Tacosnape]

Except that Planar Void and Wheel or Sun and Moon are utter trash against Vengevine Survival because you can just play around the triggers a little slower, and Propaganda and Ghostly Prison don't help much because Survival just goes and gets the answer to it. And Lion's Eye Diamond is basically a 0-mana answer to Hibernation. Which leaves Needle, Grip, and Extirpate as the only actually scary things.

As for Survival being 75% of the field? No. It's not.

As for 90% of the better players playing it? It's probably not, but it shouldn't surprise you if it does. The best players play the best decks, because the most true thing in all of tournament magic is that people overestimate the power of hate. Look at the Hatfields. They ran Reanimator when it was the best deck, hate be damned, and they ran Survival when it was the best deck, hate be damned. And they win a hell of a lot more than they lose.

[dontbiteitholmes]

France. from september to november

52 men September

1-Burn with lynx
2-Countertop UGR
3-Merfolk U
4-Merfolk U
5-HiveMind
6-TES
7-CanadianThresh
8-Merfolk Ub

178 men October

1-Supreme Blue
2-Reanimator
3-Berseck Stompy
4-Painter
5-Ichorid
6-Landstill
7-Zoo
8-Ichorid

80 men October

1-Survival UG
2-Big Zoo
3-Bant
4-Big Zoo
5-Survival Gr
6-Elfeball
7-GW Aggro
8-Survival Gbw

44 men October

1-Ghast Dredge
2-Burn with lynx
3-Rock BGW
4-PainterNought
5-HiveMind
6-JaceStill
7-Merfolk
8-Merfolk


84men october

1-GWB Rock
2-Elball
3-Ooze Combo
4-CTop URg
5-
6-TES
7-ProBant
8-GW Survival

48 men november

1-UWg JaceStill
2-Ant
3-SnT emrakul
4-Rock BGW
5-HiveMind
6-Dredge
7-
8-Enchantress

yeah "ouh la la" Survival has taken down the equilibrium of the meta.

I think the reality of France is that they are as bad at Legacy as everything else. Any meta that puts Hivemind and Elfball consistantly in the top 8 doesn't deserve to be mentioned in a serious conversation.

[ryO!]

I think the reality of France is that they are as bad at Legacy as everything else. Any meta that puts Hivemind and Elfball consistantly in the top 8 doesn't deserve to be mentioned in a serious conversation.

Warning : Do not feed the troll.

[sephorusFR]

or maybe we're less netdecker than average us player :o

[CorpT]

or maybe we're less netdecker than average us player :o

Because Elfball and Hivemind aren't netdecks?

You say netdeck like it's a bad thing. On a site on the net dedicated to building decks...